Wow! D18 got a 33C on her Oct ACT, up from 30C last Feb. Individual scores all went up: E 30->34, M 27->29, R 35->35, S 28->34. I expected more of an increase in math. Anyway, I didn’t have her take the essay which may cause a problem with colleges because I think some (most?) require the essay before they’ll consider a sitting.
We still have the SAT scores coming at the end of Feb and then the PSAT scores in early Dec. That’ll give us a complete picture on her college situation.
In looking over the various honor colleges offered at MA universities, it seems like the biggest benefit would be the housing. UMass Amherst allows honors students to live in a separate section which would make for a nice community. Others seem to set aside a dorm floor(s). But if the whole building is partying and rocking then how is that much of a benefit when you are only a few feet away from the animals?
In looking over the course catalogs, it also looks as if a single class could have honor and non-honor students where the honor students would be doing more work. Is this true? Would the honor kids have to do 100 math problems and the regular kids only do 50 math problems? There just did not seem like that many honors only classes to make much of a difference. It might only be one a semester which is only 20% of the classes taken by the student.
Can anyone with kids in honors programs comment on this? I am on the outside looking in so I have no first hand knowledge and could be totally wrong.
@droppedit Congrats on the 33! Increasingly colleges and universities are moving away from requiring the essay component of the ACT/SAT. There are lists of schools that still require the essay on well known test prep sites that I can’t list on this site but should be pretty easy to find.
@MassDaD68 – the Honors colleges we’re looking at have separate dorms, so that isn’t as much of a concern. I like the HC idea because kids get preferential treatment on course selection, group activities, etc. Basically, your kid is less of a “just another number” at a big school.
I don’t know if I would characterize the non-honors kids as “animals” unless you’re going to call them “party animals”.
I think it is curious that people on CC are always searching for diversity and yet don’t want to live with others who aren’t their intellectual peers and jump to the conclusion that all the ‘regular’ students are just at college to party. My daughter’s roommate from freshman year is in the honors college but chose to live in the freshmen dorm. I’m not sure if the honors housing was a little too co-ed for this very conservative girl and they were on a female floor that was about as far from Party Central as you could get, but she didn’t want to live in the honors house. My nephew turned down the honors program at Florida, and thus gave up honors housing.
One daughter gets priority registration because she’s an athlete. My regular, run-of-the-mill daughter has never had trouble getting a class or section that she has wanted.
Word of caution regarding test scores- even a perfect score is no guarantee for top tier/elite admissions. Also, every school does its Honors differently. Plus flagships differ- some are top tier, others less so. Living with all students at a top tier flagship instead of being segregated in an Honors dorm depends on the rest of the student body. So many variables.
A lot of this depends on the opportunity set of schools, the cost differences, ability to pay, the incremental opportunities at the better school, and the students ability and willingness to exploit those opportunities.
Whatever people say, there is no definitive right answer. Additionally, since she can’t do both, so you will never really know for sure. In the end, you choose one and move on.
When my son was deciding on where to apply with his very high stats, I asked him if he would prefer to be in an honors program at a university or to be at a college/university where ALL the kids are at his level. His answer was that he wanted to be somewhere where all the students were his equals, academically speaking (he’s a proud and self-proclaimed nerd). There were some (mostly athletes) at the college he ended up attending that were a little more about the partying than the studying, but overall it ended up to be a good fit for him.
So that might be a question that you might want to ask your daughter.
Nov SAT score came in this morning. She got a 1480 overall (EBRW:750, Math:730). The CB website translates that to an ACT of 32. What’s weird is that her lowest subscore on the SAT was Reading while on the ACT her Reading was the highest subscore (35 both times she took it). Unfortunately, as with the latest ACT, I didn’t schedule the Essay so this new score won’t be accepted by every college on her list (mostly reach schools). She’ll have one more round of the ACT and SAT and then she’ll be done with the standardized testing.
With an SAT of 1480, an ACT of 33, and UW-GPA of 4.0, she’s all set for her safeties and targets. The reaches are lotteries but at least her stats won’t automatically put her in the reject pile.
At most state flagship Us there are plenty of very high stat, motivated kids and so it is not accurate to state that a student would not find intellectual peers or even students that are above them in ability at a state U, honors program or not. Certainly, that is more true at some State Us than others, but unless the kid is at a top 10 college,a well-regarded State U will have many peers. Very capable kids choose big State Us over upper tier smaller schools for a lot of reasons, money being a primary one and the big school experience. Depending on the major, the facilities and research opportunities can also be great at a big Public U.
That being said, the name on the diploma will be the state U whether it is honors or not. If the chosen profession is one that requires a top tier college, that could be a consideration. OTOH, the alumni network at top State Us is often quite deep.
As others have said, honors programs and the associated perks vary widely and depend on the major.
I have a son at a state university/honors college. He is as motivated and high achieving as anyone I have ever known.
He was valedictorian of his high school class of about 350 students (graduated in 2016), a national merit finalist, state AP scholar, high standardized test scores, 2 sport varsity athlete but real volunteer activities or leadership roles. He is shy and does not draw attention to himself. His father, paternal grandfather, and paternal uncle all went to Dartmouth. His father and I both went to Tufts Medical School. We wanted him at a small school because he is quiet, so he applied to 7 private schools. We were shocked when he was rejected by 3 schools and waitlisted by the other 4 schools including Dartmouth and Tufts. I don’t think his dad or his side of the family will ever get over Dartmouth’s decision. My son’s numbers were way higher than the average student at Tufts and I honestly did not see Tufts as an elite. Tufts still asks me for donations, so I e-mailed President Monaco to tell him why I would never donate to Tufts. He actually replied that Tufts wants students who contribute something to the college community, not those who would excel there.
In April, my son applied to our state university and was accepted with a full tuition scholarship. He decided to look at the NMF schools and he chose ASU-Barrett Honors College. Because of the NMF status, he has a full tuition scholarship. Out of state tuition for ASU is $26,000, so that is what we don’t pay. We did not see him at Tempe with 50,000 students, so he applied to the Polytechnic Campus in Mesa. He stays in the honors wing of the dorm so there is not a lot of partying. The dorm is very nice and modern. It is only a few years old. He has had great support from the university. When he initially had some anxiety about being thousands of miles from home, they all helped him. The university really wanted to keep their NMF. He is doing great in school now. He got two A+s this first semester and will take 18 credits next semester including taking a couple of classes at Tempe. He is planning a double major and because they will credit most of his AP exams, he can graduate in 3 years. The scholarship gives him 8 semesters, so he can get a masters his 4th year if he wants to stay there. I am hoping it all works out well, but only time will tell.
The irony of the situation is that we had money saved up for the elite private school, $70,000 a year for 4 years. We are paying about $14,000 a year for room and board and $1000 a year for the honors college fees at ASU. Over 4 years, we will have saved $220,000. If you consider that he can get a bachelor’s in 3 years when it would have been 4 years elsewhere, we are saving $235,000 for his bachelor’s degree. I remember paying back my med school loans and I wound up paying back 3 times what I borrowed because of the interest. I can’t imagine that a bachelor’s degree from any institution is worth $700,000 more than a bachelor’s degree from ASU. The scary thing is that had my son gotten into Tufts or any of the other private schools he initially applied to, he would have gone and we would have gladly paid out a large amount of our hard earned money. He would not have applied to ASU and we would never have known about the public school/honors college option.
I can’t say that any of us has truly gotten over what happened in the admissions process. It has really made me question the value of an elite private college education. If they are looking to put together an interesting, diverse group of people and not necessarily the brightest minds, how will that improve the quality of education? They don’t have a monopoly on the best professors either. How is that worth the huge price tag that they are charging? We have a year off and my younger son applies next year. He will definitely be applying exclusively to public schools.
^ASU Barrett is a terrific choice. Tempe Honors is actually pretty small and less commuter than Mesa. They have their own “mini campus” on the larger one.If he’s okay with Tempe, encourage him to switch - Tempe’s ASU Barrett students benefit from great fellowship/competitive program advisers on top of everything.
I am sorry your son was given such poor advice that his list didn’t include matches and safeties, or, if he was given the advice to include matches and safeties on his list, that he wasn’t able to hear reason until it was “too late”. I’m also glad you found ASU Barrett and sound so proud of him.
For the record, American universities have NEVER been about the “brightest minds” as defined by high test scores. Up until the late 60’s/early 70s, it was all about legacy and wealth, with a disproportionate share of admits coming from boarding schools, where one entered not on intellectual ability but money and connections. (Think about the joke about Princeton from the Great Gatsby - that, at the time, any boarding school boy with a C average would expect to get in, it was a badge of social class hence Gatsby’s choice - and the truth was that he’d attended a “school for immigrants” that is, today, a very respected national LAC too.) Middle class students went to public universities, which were not especially selective and were very cheap (think about $300 tuition). Some used their GI Bill. Others just went to work directly.
Realization that this system was depriving American higher education from its brightest minds - defined in different terms than just money, but on a variety of metrics -, that it was fundamentally unfair as well as inefficient, and recognition that the economy was changing led to the adjustments to the system as we know them today (i’m simplifying.)
Nowadays, intelligence is a given at all elite universities (and despite possible counselor shortcoming, it is mindboggling that you, being educated parents, didn’t think Tufts was part of that group). Everybody is going to be a top student. It’s the “something extra” that matters.
Being a legacy gives a big advantage today, but ALL schools with below 20% acceptance rates are “reaches for everyone” . No one can take any university or LAC with a sub-20% acceptance rate for granted. The process favors students who not only have great grades and scores, BUT ALSO must bring something unique to the campus community - and because this “something” is often unknown save for those who know ahead of time, it is still disproportionately favoring students from wealthy and/or educated parents - it just gives everyone else a chance.
I have taught in the honors programs of 2 state research universities. There was good money and individualized attention for honors students at both. The commitment and intellectual ability of the students varied wildly in each university. Certainly the honors classes were good (fast paced, demanding, taught by strong faculty), but the students do have to take classes outside of honors. I have had students whom I taught in honors in regular classes (some follow me). I felt sorry for them as we are going much slower and more superficially than in an honors class.
I have a daughter at HYPS. There is NO COMPARISON. Even as an old, well-traveled professor, I am amazed at her experience: endless individualized attention, daily intellectual challenges in and out of the classroom, fast-paced trajectories, a culture where grant-writing is normal and arts are play. . . I don’t know what the experience at Tufts would be, but from my years in academia, generally elite privates provide more resources for students than publics can. Few publics have significant endowments, and many are struggling economically.
Finally I must respond to m22boys comment about elites not looking for the brightest minds. The elites aren’t looking for the highest test scores or grades. For instance my daughter’s were in well range, not perfect, but she had demonstrated a variety of abilities recognized at the international and national level. Elites are looking for people who can “contribute;” that is, dynamic, creative, generous people who look beyond the classroom and the test.
@m22boys – sounds like my D18 is somewhat like your son but she doesn’t have a sport to put on her resume (she’s doing Fencing but basically phoning it in). I’m also having difficulty with the value proposition of the elite privates and doubt she’ll get admitted. I keep coming back to the Honors college at our StateU. Her current favorite is USC – so still in the $$$ private school realm. We find out tomorrow if she gets NMF from her PSAT, which would help quite a bit with tuition there.
@mamalion – but she had demonstrated a variety of abilities recognized at the international and national level is what will keep D18 out of the elites. She loves tutoring and mentoring. She has five or six 9th grade Honors Bio kids she tutors each week ($20/hour, so she’s raking in the dough).
Got the PSAT score today. Total Score was 1470 (EBRW:760, Math:710). SI was 223 … so I think she’ll meet the NMSF cutoff for GA.
I just finished shepherding my third and last through this process. Based on our data points, I’ve come to believe the key to admissions is to have your kid create a compelling story and tell that story through the common app. To president Monaco’s point, the story has to speak to passion and impact on the school. And I firmly believe every kid has a compelling story.
For example, @droppedit , your D could tell a compelling story about tutoring/mentoring. The story is not about the money earned, it’s about the effect tutoring has had on her (satisfaction, preparation, improving her teaching methods, patience, perseverance, etc.) and the effect it has had on others (better understanding of material, better grades, friendships, etc.) If these qualities are drawn out in other parts of the app (essay, supplements, activities, course of study, etc.), your D can paint a compelling story of passion and impact.
we didn’t take this approach for our oldest son and had an experience similar to @m22boys We did adopt it for our middle child, he was accepted everywhere. At two of the schools, he had the lowest gpa of anyone accepted (according to naviance). My D was just admitted to a school that rejected our salutatorian two years ago.
Allow me to add my two cents. I have no question that many Honors Colleges offer just as good education, and that students in these Honors Colleges are just as smart as students at any Ivy schools. Also, I am all for saving money. However, for us, the real problem was that these great Honors Colleges which would have offered near full ride scholarships to my probable NMF kid did not have as good Programs in the area of my kid’s intended major, which was International Relations and a minor in East Asian Studies. Because of this it’s very, very tough to turn down an acceptance offer from a top 3 ranked national colleges (one of HYPS) in the U.S. simply because they have a top 3 programs in the field my kid is interested in pursuing.
Anyway, the bottom line is I persuaded my kid to apply to a great Honors College which might or might not offer a near full ride scholarship, but his unexpectedly getting into the top 3 colleges which has one of the best programs in the field in which he is interested has definitely thrown us a curve ball.
@mamalion, I enjoyed reading your post. I believe the quality of education does not depend on the college being an Honors College but whether a particular Honors College has a great program in a particular field in which your kid is interested.
I’d be tempted to go for the cheaper honors undergrad, and then pursue a graduate degree at a school that was tops in the field.