High end college vs. honors program at state college?

Parents Forum
101

So here’s what I’m looking at:

Large competitive public HS (3000+ students)
White female
4.0 UW GPA (AP Bio completed; taking AP Calc AB, AP Chem, AP CS Principles junior year)
PSAT: 1470 (EBRW:760, M:710, SI:223 – so NMSF/GA is likely)
ACT: C:33 (M:29, S:34, E:34, R:35)
SAT: 1480 (EBRW:750, M:730)
Weak ECs (mentoring, lots of paid tutoring, NHS, SNHS/leadership role, NTHS, Fencing)
Maturity issues (procrastination - requiring us to get her moving, no strong academic interest yet, etc.)
Major: Cognitive Science, although she keeps getting drawn to International Affairs/Travel
Funding not an issue

Being as objective as possible for a parent, I see a kid that’s relatively weak at math and strong at all the other academic areas, no standout ECs, not a very rigorous course load (which I’m fine with).

I’ll include a modified copy of her current college list from the 2018 thread.

============================================================
Extreme Reach
UChicago - ultimate lottery, back on the list after her PSAT

Reach:
Northwestern - lottery school, she’d freeze her rear off if she actually got in
Rice - tentative lottery, we’re touring it over Christmas (going to see in-laws)
Georgia Tech - in-state but also in high demand, doesn’t have her major
UCB - I think being OOS will kill this one

Target:
USC - high target
UCLA - same as UCB, not likely
NYU - was a favorite a while ago, not so much these days

Safety:
UGA - I think she has a good shot at Honors here
UA - six semesters paid for by NMSF

I’m using the ACT score as the categorizer, where she’s in the mid-50% for reaches, at the 75% for targets, and above the 75% for safeties. I don’t think the UCs will work for OOS and if we’re going to pay that much I’d rather her go to USC (although I like the area around UCLA much better). My preference is for her to go to UGA and have fun. Look at a reach for graduate school if she decides to continue her education.

She's cut down the super-reaches over time. UChicago and NW were the first schools to send her email/mail after her PSAT last year ... so naturally she focused on them. I searched for UChicago (because I didn't know anything about it) and stumbled upon CC. That's when I learned that she was a victim of rejection-bait.

Any comments on her college list?

102

@MYOS1634 Thanks for the information. We live in a less populated state. In our city, there is one high school that recruits the “highly gifted” students. My son never wanted to leave his friends to attend that school and I did not want to have my two kids at different high schools. The college counseling at that school is supposed to be good. At our school, each counselor has a few hundred students and probably close to a hundred seniors each year. They do well for our state college but not much else. Having said that, the salutatorian from my son’s class got into Harvard. #4 got into Columbia. #5 got into Penn. #8 got into MIT. #2 and #5 had the same counselor as my son had. The counselor really pushed my son to go to our state school, but my son did wanted to go out of state for college.

My son will be taking two classes, upper division economics and stats at Tempe next semester. Neither is an honors class but neither is a class that freshmen usually take. He has only one honors class a semester and the rest of the classes are in the regular college. He has declared math as his major and will be doing two math classes that are usually in the 4th semester of the major. I will encourage him to look more at moving possibly moving to Tempe.

@mamalion I think it is very difficult to discern the intelligence of a person based on an application and an interview. If they are not going by objective numbers, it is even more subjective. I have met a lot of people in my line of work from fancy schools and they definitely are not the most successful. My husband went to Dartmouth and he always tells me how the quality of people there is higher than at a public school. I went to Cal and spent 1/5 of what he spent on his undergraduate degree, but we still wound up at the same medical school. We are both doing well in our careers. In my case, I don’t think my undergraduate education made or broke me. I would have wound up here had I followed a different path.

What I told my son and others in a similar situation is that HYPS and the likes do NOT have a magic formula and you cannot let their rejection define you. I remind them of Tom Brady who was drafted #199 in the 6th round of the 2000 NFL draft. Six quarterbacks were picked ahead of him – Chad Pennington (#18), Giovanni Carmazzi (#65), Chris Redman (#75), Tee Martin (#163), Marc Bulger (#168), and Spergeon Wynn (#183). Brady is one of the top QBs of all time and every NFL team got it wrong. He definitely has a chip on his shoulder because of what happened to him on draft day. Life is full of disappointments and it is how we deal with them that builds character.

103

Sorry to be slow getting back to CC, but it’s the end of my semester, a very busy time.

First let me say to the OP that a job, like paid tutoring, can be considered a good EC: for elite schools, it is the road less traveled. I concur that it would make a good topic for an essay, and essays do count.

In response to suggestions that I am wrong and an honors college or a good public school is as good as an elite, I don’t know how to respond. I certainly know that there are great public colleges and there are smart students everywhere. My Masters is from a mediocre public university, and some of my professors were very good. Elite colleges, however, are different not just because of their endowment and world class faculty, but because they understand the purposes of education differently than public colleges. Honors programs from their general education requirements to the available ECs are still driven by the bulk of the student body. They can offer wonderful opportunities–I have an honors student who is benefiting from big fish syndrome right now–but they are not the same as an elite college.

I make my living in academia and have for 30 years. I have been on 100’s of campuses, spoken with 1000’s of faculty, seen how they make the sausage in multiple countries. People in the profession are very worried about the change in funding patterns for state schools, from the pull out of state funding to the massive increase in part-time faculty. There is a thread right now where the kid wants to transfer from a small private to Louisville, a good state school, but her mother doesn’t want it. The kicker is that Louisville would be free because the mother works there.

A motivated student can get a good education from many different environments, but honors programs in state schools do not offer the same education as elites.

104

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105

So much depends on the school. HYPS are NOT the top schools in some areas so the available opportunities could be less than at some top flagships. Some flagships are overall comparable to many top tier private schools so the student body will be comparable. A large public U can offer enough rigorous courses to top students and large enough peer groups in many majors.

btw- being prepared to enter a good grad program happens often at the large public U’s. Remember, not all elite college grads go on to grad schools.

So many variables. The nonacademic ones count as well. Different campuses have different mindsets. Plus locations. There is life away from the coasts, btw. Both in school and work. It is not just about the academic rigor- some atmospheres are not tolerable to some elite/gifted students.

Plus- being exposed to “lesser” college students who are still at a top tier school is a lesson learned about a more real world. Could be good for the privileged students who go from one expensive private school to another to see that there are others with better brains. Getting into an elite school with scholarship money doesn’t make it affordable in fitting in with other students.

One size does not fit all.

106

@droppedit She would likely get 32k/year from Tulane. Did you consider Emory?

107

@droppedit Also, she could take flyer for other ivies, she is on stat for them and you never know. They would all be cheaper than USC.

108

Depending on where you live, YMMV.

For us, we live in a low population, unbelievably homogeneous state with mediocre state schools. DDs friends from HS (the top performers) attend the Honors College at our state school. I don’t get the sense that their college life is much different than HS other than more alcohol and lack of parental supervision. They don’t live in the Honors dorm as that is apparently party-central.

In comparison, DD, a freshman at a top private, came home just bubbling about her wonderful experience:

– gaining friends from all parts of the country and internationals too.
– chance to attend lectures and events of nationally and internationally well known people
– meeting students that are incredibly smart, far beyond anything she has seen in our state
– participating in clubs that are run at a level massively more sophisticated than anything here
– being in an environment where everyone is interested and focused on learning, where she feels she has found her tribe at long last.

She will take advantage of many fantastic things her school has to offer. For this, we are happy to pay the bill.

Having said that, DS, who is cut from a different cloth, probably would have been fine at a good Honors College (something better than what we have) where he could have slid into graduate STEM classes in his upperclass years. As it was, I don’t think the private school education resulted in any extra value+ for him. Apparent, however, only in the retro-specto-scope.

@mamalion, appreciate you sharing your experience and thoughts.

109

@ihs76 – sounds like your D is having a great time at UChicago. My D18 would love to go there … but unless some drastic happens with her time management skills between now and then, I imagine it would be a disaster (she would fall behind in her first quarter classes and never be able to catch up given the fast pace). Of course, it could go the opposite direction – she could truly understand the honor of going there and get her act together. She’s certainly capable of handling it.

110

Have/are you all factoring in alumni support and connections as you consider high end colleges vs. state honors programs? This is something that I am starting to see can (not always, but can) make a difference in experiences and opportunities.

We (spouse and I) have been exposing our next in line for college to various honor’s programs in our state university system. Our oldest D has a full ride to a lower ranked private school and has loved it. This school also, however, has a very strong alumni support base that has been a great benefit. Our oldest son is at an Ivy and doors open for him with ease. Both of them have told us to REALLY think about the lack of alumi strength and name recognition of state honor’s programs. Not a deal breaker, but based on their experiences vs. some of their friends who are in or graduating from state directional (not flagship) honor’s programs, their options for jobs and high paying internships in the summer and right out of school are ‘fine’ but not nearly as massive, geographically diverse, and strong as they each of our kids have had. In addition, our one at the Ivy (and his friends at Notre Dame, Wesleyan, etc) have alumni networks that embrace them, all over the country. Same with D’s friends from Smith, Duke, and Wellesley. Given that none are sure they want to return to our home state, they seem very glad to go to almost any major city and have connections (and a name recognizing school) off the bat.

This is a small sampling on their ends but do the long term effects of alumni support matter? Education wise, my D at the lower ranked school has found the honor’s program to be challenging but loves also having classes in the ‘general pond’ and friends of all academic ability. Our son wanted a 24/7 challenge and to be surrounded by bright kids. He is in a pressure cooker with the Ivy, but loves that. So on that end, I would tell your kids to really think about the types of kids in generally they want as the ‘majority’ at their schools of choice.

So, curious as to what you all think about the relevance or lack thereof of name recognition and alumni strength?

111

@ReturningFavor - I think you may have a point. For example, I don’t think it’s an accident that Williams College in Massachusetts has a reputation for sending kids to Wall Street or that Wesleyan in Connecticut has so many people in the entertainment field. Connections absolutely make a difference in the world of finance and the arts and probably in politics as well. Less so in medicine and STEM…

112

@droppedit "won’t “play the game” to get those scores up (so far, hopefully that’ll change). Hasn’t zeroed in on a major so far. "

First, I would want to get a handle on the major. That can just be knowing which subjects she she gets better grades at, and which subjects interest her, what she thinks is important in terms of potential future jobs and lifestyle, and how that lines up with the actual job market.

Second, it may be that an inexpensive college consultant may be helpful in understanding her interests, and also in getting her to understand the importance of grades and test scores. Many students will not listen to their parents at that age, no matter what. Every parent has been their. A consult can sometimes say what you said, almost word for word, and suddenly it is a good idea. lol

113

^^Santa’s going to put coal in your stocking, junior.

114

@droppedit I can’t understand why Uchicago would be on your child’s list if she has motivation issues. Its not a good fit.

Back on topic- Where most kids fail in the ED ‘game’ is overreaching on ED when they have very little chance and ‘wasting’ their ED or EA (in the case of SCEA) on a school they would never get into.

115

@droppedit - did you say your dd has an interest in international affairs/international relations? Look into the Croft Institute at Ole Miss. Might be a good fit. Ole Miss, in general, is quite generous with merit, especially for OOS students who are National Merit. Croft scholarships are competitive, however. Plenty of merit aid without that one, however. The honors college at Ole Miss is also selective and smaller than at other similar institutions. They also have a Chinese flagship program, I believe, if that language interests her.

116

@ReturningFavor In my experience, alumni network is overrated. I’ve never once had to rely on either of my alma maters’ alumni network for a job, and I don’t know anyone who personally has had to. It may matter in some fields, as suggested by others. I don’t know. But it definitely doesn’t matter in my field or in any that I’m familiar with.

117

@much2learn – D18 has been thinking about majoring in Cognitive Science (or similar) for quite a while, by far the longest she’s stuck with a single one.

@suzyQ7 – totally agree about UChicago. I think D18 has finally begun to understand that it isn’t a good fit for her. The first big break was when I told her that UChicago’s math was heavily into proofs (I read that on a UChi thread here).

@Hoggirl – yes, she was thinking about IR a while back but it looks like she’s firmly back into STEM now. She was very excited about being selected for her HS’s iGEM team next year.

D18’s favorite school at the moment is USC - Southern Cal. She will most likely be a NMF and that would cut the tuition in half, which is great since we won’t qualify for any financial aid.

118

This letter written by a young woman who chose her in-State U-Md Honors program over UC-Berkley (oos, obviously) stuck with me:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/grade-point/wp/2016/07/22/five-lessons-i-learned-the-hard-way-from-the-college-application-process/?client=ms-android-verizon.com/amphtml/news/grade-point/wp/2016/07/22/five-lessons-i-learned-the-hard-way-from-the-college-application-process/?client=ms-android-verizon

119

@CoyoteMom – that article is perfect for D18 (right down to the obsession with UCLA and UCB, OOS). USC is now tops on her list because of the NMF potential and if the locations of USC and UCLA were swapped, USC would be my favorite by a huge amount.

I’m going to include a demangled link here and send it to her:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/grade-point/wp/2016/07/22/five-lessons-i-learned-the-hard-way-from-the-college-application-process/

I think items 1, 2, and 4 are going to be the most difficult for D18. I’ve tried to prepare her for 1 and 2 by saying things like, “at the high-end schools, test scores don’t get you admitted, they just keep you from being put in the rejected pile”. Basically, once you get past all the barriers to entry there are still a pile of acceptable applicants to those schools and who gets picked from that pile is unpredictable. It’s a difficult thing for a kid to understand.

Item 4 is going to be especially difficult for D18. She doesn’t like to make a big deal of her accomplishments and getting her to create a quality resume is like pulling teeth.

Thanks

120

I was reading the recent thread on CC, Teacher’s Aide bad for college apps?, and was a little concerned about D18 since she’s doing the same for her Junior and upcoming Senior year. At her HS the class is known as “Independent Research” (something you apply for and have to get accepted into). She’s grading tests for Honors Bio and has to write a paper on an experiment of her design. She really likes it and it has opened some doors for her in paid tutoring, her interaction with the teachers, etc.

Anyway, I was reading the responses to the OP and some were fairly negative. Others suggested “spinning” it into a positive on a college app. . Basically, I’m at the point where if a college looks at D18’s app and view such things negatively then I’ll say, “screw you”, and have her move onto somewhere else. This whole college app crap is out of control.