High School and College Planning for Gifted Students?

Parents Forum
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<p>The thread wis75 opened about parents of gifted and talented students has been very interesting. Seeing that there are many parents here knowledgeable about those issues, I'd like to ask a specific question in a separate thread, not to hijack the first thread. </p>

<p>If you were advising a gifted student of junior-high age how to plan for high school, what would you advise? </p>

<p>Similarly, if you were advising a gifted student of precollege age how to plan for college, what would you advise? (I'll take it that reading CC regularly is already on the list of advice. ;) ) </p>

<p>Thanks for your good ideas.</p>

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<p>Token, wouldn't just about any kid likely to want to attend an elite college (let's say, US News top 20) -- also probably be "gifted"? Maybe not extremely gifted, if you look at the SAT ranges for the top schools then it obvious that the schools draw mostly from the same population that would qualify for the "gifted" label. </p>

<p>I'm asking that because I would question the need for a separate category of college prep planning -- it seems to me that the advice for a college bound kid would be pretty much the same no matter what the label. Of course it would be tailored to the individual student's interests and goals.</p>

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<p>I'll bite. I think your S and mine have many similarities, though there are real differences, especially since your is homeschooled and mine was not.</p>

<p>We did not plan specifically for college. As I said elsewhere, we tried to get S the education that was most appropriate for him. This meant college classes starting in 9th grade. The friends he'd had when he was in k-8 were no longer in his classes (partly because of the high school's decision to assign students to different small learning communities, partly because of his taking higher level classes and thus his class schedule being different from theirs) and the friends he made in AP classes having graduated (he'd started out with what are considered the two toughest AP classes, generally taken by seniors). As well, his grade-level classes were not very challenging, and he was eager to proceed at a faster pace and in greater depth. All this made him interested in early graduation. A schoolmate was going through the process and paved the way for him (the school eventually set out the procedure for early graduation; there had been none before).</p>

<p>In sophomore year, he took the PSAT in October and all the SAT and SAT-IIs he needed by the end of the year. By the end of sophomore year, he had 4 APs as well as several college classes, so he was in a good position to apply early. I'd been told that early graduates were better off appying RD so as to make their application as competitive as possible but Marilee Jones said that with his record, there was no need to wait to apply RD.
He and we researched universities and LACs and regretfully decided that LACs would not be the answer. S asked around for advice on schools with strong math departments, so he had an idea of where to apply. During the sophomore year, he set up visits to a number of schools, including meetings with chairs of departments or undergraduate advisors. On his first visit, he was rather reticent about approaching students to ask about his experience, but he improved on successive visits. There were some schools on his list he could not visit because of distance and lack of time but he got a fair idea of what they were like from friends who attended as well as from recent graduates. He felt he would be happy attending any of the schools that were on his list.</p>

<p>Attending some info sessions, however, solidified in his mind what his desiderata were. He'd originally put MIT at the top but later decided he would like a student body with more diverse interests and less stamped with the engineering ethos. Still, he knew he could be very happy there (lots of friends attending) and so MIT remained high on his list. He decided to apply SCEA to Harvard and once he was admitted, he decided not to apply elsewhere. He'd sent in his application to STanford, however, because of the early RD deadline. Although he sent several emails withdrawing his applcation, he was admitted in April.</p>

<p>He never considered a gap year. At this stage, he is still very much in thrall to his passion and wants to pursue it as intensively as he can. Some might consider this "rushing through life." I just see it as the consequence of being highly focused. I should note that he was not a very young college entrant (a few months older than Soozie's D).</p>

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<p>To me, if at all possible, I would get the gifted child into a high school with peers. This would be superior to going to college early where a choice exists. There are so many wonderful schools for the gifted.</p>

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<p>token, I don't know your child's specific situation, so this may or may not apply. Intellectually gifted children are not necessarily the highest academic achievers. </p>

<p>They may get very good grades across the board or they may just excel in their areas of interest and disregard everthing else. If that's the case then it's important to focus intensely and deeply on their areas of interest while at the same time maintaining a respectable level of achievement in the, well, less compelling subjects. </p>

<p>For the junior high school student I'd advise constantly challenging his/her comfort level through experimentation and creative thinking. Sometimes this is difficult for gifted children as they greatly fear failure. Depending on what that discipline is that appeals, I would supplement and enhance the learning experience. Gifted programs, college classes, travel, independent study programs are all good options.</p>

<p>For the student who's about to apply to college I would advise thinking about how to convey his/her "giftedness" in his/her application. Grades/scores may be enough tell the story or conversely may reveal a lopsidedness that will need to be addressed in the application. Colleges love interesting kids who do interesting things. Who think differently, creatively, aggressively. How to get this across in an application can be challenging.</p>

<p>Recommendations play a big role in revealing a student's thought process. Identify and cultivate relationships with recommenders who understand the difference between giftedness and high achievement. Extra-curriculars can also contribute a lot to the whole picture. Again, depending on what the student's area of interest is, what s/he does outside of class can be as important as grades and scores.</p>

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<p>to be blunt-there are kids who are "gifted" in middle school- that are merely bright with the increased challenges of high school and college.</p>

<p>There are students who are "brillant" and would be hard pressed to find a high school environment with "peers".</p>

<p>There are students who are average in middle school, or even struggling, but with increased interest in high school courses and curriculum can be brillant students in college.</p>

<p>a student who is very focused on academics in 7th grade- may discover boys in 9th grade- and all her attention goes out the window-
My daughter for example is "gifted" but in high school she worked hard, but she also had many other interests.
Junior year of high school- she was planning on attending a design school or a college where she could major in design.
However- by winter of senior year, she realized she wanted a break from school- she did apply to some good colleges and universities in our region ( and was accepted)
In the winter of her gap year, she found another college that she was more interested in- it was significantly different from her other choices, in that it was highly rigorous and intense- across majors.
so she went from having a decent but not amazing GPA in high school, to attending a school that was easily as prestigous ( for those who know ;) ) and challenging as anyone else in her graduating class.( she also changed her major from art to biology)</p>

<p>I agree that it isn't really a specialized thing any more than finding a good fit program is for any student</p>

<p>My D has had a few friends- who skipped all or part of high school in order to attend a university ( Univ of Washington & UChicago respectively) but
two other identical students may have had more traditional high school experiences and done equally as well.</p>

<p>I think the most important thing is do find what is appropriate "now".
Not with the aim of a certain college or career, things change.
Kids change.
It isn't so much about IQ- because at every school there will be a range of intellects- but on the fit of the college- which would encompass whatever criteria your family decides is most important-</p>

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<p>I'd suspect that the answer is "things can change", even for highly gifted kids, which is why the results of overplanning tend not to always come to fruition. </p>

<p>True, there are some kids like Marite's son, who hit their stride early, and just continue on the trajectory. I think they are a special lot. But many more are like those that EK describes. Some, kids who look incredibly special as younger kids, and less so as older ones. Or, there are those students whose interests change.</p>

<p>My son is a good example. He is highly gifted in Math, was working on college problem sets in 6th and 7th grade, was on a Math team in middle school that won state and national awards, and was awarded some special recognititon from JHU in math. Until 8th grade, we really thought Math or Chemistry would be his path for college, and imagined him at MIT, Ivy or top LAC.</p>

<p>But he really is more social than a lone mathematician, and discovered that making music collaboratively was really what made his heart sing. He happens to also be an exceptional musician, and his path through high school was not at all what we expected when he was a freshman, as his love and passion for music just exploded (despite having played two instruments since second and fifth grade, respectively). He is now preparing for auditions for conservatories, despite having completed a double accelerated math curriculum. This was a bit of an adjustment in thinking for his parents! :)</p>

<p>So, I think it is wise not to overplan, but more "go with the flow". At least that would be my advice.</p>

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<p>Allmusic:</p>

<p>Math and music seem to go together well. I know of at least two math + music majors. And one of the math profs my S has had composes music.</p>

<p>But you are absolutely right about overplanning. Kids change both in intellectual interests and in social development. That's why we did not plan S's curriculum with college in mind but tried to find classes that best met his needs at particular stages.</p>

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<p>I have one D in college who was in the gifted program and another in 7th who is labeled such. I have two boys who have not been labeled, but the oldest doesn't test well. My view is to find what interest them and let them take it as far as they can. My oldest did not like the g&t classes but loved debate, which intellectually challenged her every week. School was not as challenging but she always aimed for perfection, which still left a challenge. My S that's a junior is not as driven in most classes, but he loves, loves, loves the drafting program and computer program. For the middle schooler, it's finding what she loves to be involved in, as school is little to no challenge.
She dances, plays soccer and loves camp. She is also starting that perfection trend, which will challenge her some at school. We'll see how she challenges herself in high school. If they take the honors and AP classes, and challenge themselves outside of school,that's all that seems to be needed. They aren't the high extreme gifted, and I like them with their peers. I think social issues are big in high school and college and doing age appropriate activities with peers is important.</p>

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<p>Hi, zagat, thanks for your comments. (And thanks for the comments from other participants, which I am pondering.) I'm guessing you have some specific examples of good high schools in mind, and I'd love to hear about them. I'm bringing this up now because my state's gifted education association has asked me to lead a discussion among local parents about the subject of this thread: high school and college choices for gifted students. What are some of the characteristics you would look for in a high school for gifted students? Around the country, what are the names of some high schools you've heard of that appear to have good programs?</p>

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<p>It seems like everyone else already knows, but how do you define 'gifted'?</p>

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<p>I'll be giving a talk on high school and college choices for gifted students soon for the [url=<a href="http://www.mcgt.net%5DMinnesota"&gt;http://www.mcgt.net]Minnesota&lt;/a> Council for the Gifted and Talented<a href="MCGT">/url</a>, and I'm vague on what I mean by "gifted" here because MCGT is too. If a parent thinks a child needs special educational accommodations because of "giftedness," I just take that statement at face value and don't card anyone at the door to see their IQ scores. For my purposes, a child is gifted if the child (or the child's parents) see a need to do something different from the usual school program.</p>

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<p>tokenadult:</p>

<p>Since students will be gifted in very different areas and at different levels, the key is flexibility and access. A single high school may not address the needs of all different types of giftedness and/or its catchment area may not yield enough gifted children to sustain different classes. For example, out of a combined group of 25 7th and 8th graders, only four worked above grade level and they were at totally different levels from one grade to five grades above. So I don't know if creating a school for gifted children is the answer rather than pushing for flexibility in placement. As students progress through the high school and exhaust the typical curriculum (eg. in math and sciences), access to college classes is crucial. This can be through distance learning or attendance at local community colleges or unversities. Students who are gifted in the arts need different types of accommodation and nurturing mentorship about which I feel less qualified to write.
As gifted students accelerate through the curriculum, they find their intellectual peers so they may not need to be in classes especially formed for them. Perhaps my S was unusually lucky insofar as he was never taunted for being the nerdy kid and was always accepted by students a few years older than he, and even invited to join an extra-curricular team when he was still in k-8.</p>

<p>What I think is needed above all is to educate k-8 teachers about the need for flexibility and allowing students to work at a level that is appropriate to them by placing out of units through testing and enriching the curriculum.</p>

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<p>All of my kids have been labeled "gifted" by their school district but I'm really not comfortable with that label. They're bright, well-prepared, from a loving supportive home, and they happen to test very well. I don't want to sell them short, they're great kids, but I think the term gifted is overused. I went to school with one kid who I'd say was actually gifted. She was a brilliant math girl who went on to the heights of academia, and while I knew her was positively miserable in high school. There was clearly nothing the school could offer her and she went off to Harvard early. From what I read here, some of you have kids who function at that level and it seems doubtful a public school would be able to provide teachers who can provide for their level of thinking. I'd think such truly gifted kids are spread out across the nation, grouping them together for high school would be problematic. Any local grouping would be watered down with kids labeled gifted who may not function at such a higher level.</p>

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<p>Just want to echo the idea that flexibility is key. We actually determined that the hyper-academic busywork environments in our area would not necessarily nurture our kids, who benefited from fewer requirements and a lower-key atmosphere that offered them the opportunity to really hone in on their talents and interests. Although we were not doing this in the interests of the college app but just to keep them and us from going nuts, I would say that this approach works very well in the end because colleges are looking for a kid who challenges him or herself and who is really accomplished (beyond the offerings of the school itself) in one or two areas. </p>

<p>We also very much treated them like intellectual peers at home and enjoyed (and continue to enjoy) their conversation, observations, and discoveries. Although they had appreciative teachers, lively classmates, and opportunities for enrichment and acceleration, they really appreciated a listening ear because they were often seeing "the other end of the elephant," as one of my s's teachers put it.</p>

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<p>I am the product of very bad inner city public schools and I've had kids in all sorts of schools, public and private, US and European. I felt I'd come full circle when I enrolled my youngest in a top boarding prep high school this year. Something I never imagined doing. This gifted child is now among highly gifted, highly motivated peers. She can take Algebra 1 or linear algebra, Spanish 1 or 5 as a freshman. There's a class to meet her needs in all subjects. When we talk teaching to the middle, the middle has a 1375 SAT score. She's already planning her junior high school year abroad. It is so clear to me now how bored she was, even with EPGY, CTY, summer programs and all kinds of enrichment classes. Her whole life is enriched now. She has never connected with other kids in the way she is doing now.</p>

<p>Not the answer for everyone, but the answer for more and more. The best ones have generous aid.</p>

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<p>The hallmark of a truly exceptional school for gifted learners, as others have said, is flexibilty in curriculum & willingness to work with all kids. One of my S' best teachers was in a public school that had 30 kids/class for 6th grade. He & a few of his peers were extremely motivated & brilliant while others were "average' and one required an educational aid for the entire time he was at school due to his multiple special needs. The teacher was able to motivate & challenge all of them--for a week several of them in their spare time each built a model of a hand & foot with popsicle sticks, string & tape & could identify all of the muscles & bones & tendons of the hand & foot. Before they finished the entire body, the teacher chaese them outside to play football & league basketball. The teacher also had each student in the class make a small personal planetarium & make observations of the skies. </p>

<p>At the highly-regarded public middle school, students who asked questions the teachers couldn't answer were considered troublemakers & ignored or worse. This was not a very nurturing environment for S or D, but I did explain that it is true of many people & systems in life. It spurred us to get our kids admitted to competitive private HS.</p>

<p>In the local private competitive HS, he had teachers who invited him to consider researching at the local flagship U, but he declined. I was very impressed that the teachers made such offers available to him & peers. The school has also begun offering independent study for those students who would like to study beyond the many AP offeriings available at the school.</p>

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<p>I really like that strategy for the ages that usually are assigned to junior high or middle school.</p>

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<p>"It seems like everyone else already knows, but how do you define 'gifted'?"</p>

<p>Psychologists usually say an IQ of 130 or above however, every school system seems to define giftedness differently. Some require IQ tests with the same or different cut-offs. (Ours used to say you had to be reading at least a year above grade level and have one of the following - 98%ile or above in the norm based math and reading tests - that went out the window with standards based test not sure what they do now - 98% or above on a test of Cognative Skills, a top score on a district created writing test and the kicker - a recommendation from a teacher if the child didn't have one of the other four markers.)</p>

<p>My oldest passed all the tests. It was no surprise - he was always precocious and had already been grade advanced in math. I have no idea what his IQ is, but I am guessing it's quite high. My younger son only got into the gifted program because of the teacher recommendation option. We had his IQ tested later looking for LDs and it turns out that it is indeed over the 130 mark, even though his school performance hasn't always been the greatest.</p>

<p>For me what makes a person "gifted" is really more about a certain quality of curiousity and persistance than anything that can be defined by numbers. It's the questions the kids ask more than what they know.</p>

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<p>My son participated in three different gifted programs at the three schools he attended. </p>

<p>The first was an all gifted public school in NYC. We learned he was eligible when we received the results of the IQ test that he was required to take as part of the admissions policy for private school. This was the first time we had ever heard the phrase “gifted” and although WE knew that our son thought differently, even as a 4 year old, his “giftedness” was certainly not apparent to his pre-school instructors. (Although afterwards they said it explained everything. :))</p>

<p>So he attended kindergarten with about 20 other mini-brainiacs and their obsessive parents (us included). The teachers and resources were off the charts good. Then we moved.</p>

<p>His second school was a private international school in an Asian country known for emphasis on math and science. They had what they called a “pull out” gifted program meaning that the kids would leave their regular classes a few hours a week for separate classes taught by specialists. </p>

<p>The program had a full time educator/administrator whose major focus and headache was determining which children qualified. Since my son had already been tagged he didn’t have to go through the process again, but I can tell you the filtering and selection process was fraught with anxiety and tension, for the parents and the school.</p>

<p>I was less enthusiastic about the pull-out system as the regular teachers resented the disruption and the kids didn’t like being “special.” Usually when kids were taken out of their classroom it was for therapy or something remedial and even though the gifted classes were meant to be challenging and fun they ended up making the kids wonder why they were being treated differently.</p>

<p>When my son was in sixth grade we moved again and he attended another large international school with a heavily Asian student body. This school was excellent academically but had no official gifted program. The teachers were advised which kids were in the gifted range and were supposed to give them specially designed projects. I don’t think this ever happened, but since the overall quality of education was good, it didn't bother us.</p>

<p>My observation from all this is that in an ideal world the 100% gifted school is the best option as it allows the kids to interact with others whose brains work like theirs and the teachers can be trained specifically to lead and encourage gifted kids. The problems with this approach are obviously 1) It’s expensive and 2) It’s perceived as elitist. </p>

<p>The elitist aspect starts with the identification and selection process. The gifted school my son attended was in an urban environment with kids from all ethnic, racial, religious and economic strata so I know that it IS possible to get a balance. The perception, however, is that gifted kids tend to be white and privileged and the thought of them giving any additional special consideration makes people’s hair frizz! (You get a lot of “If they’re so smart they should be able to figure it out by themselves. Spend the money on the kids who need it.”)</p>

<p>I use the phrase gifted because I think it’s as good as any other. I think it’s best to concentrate on intellectually gifted, rather than combine gifted and talented as talent just muddies the water. Many intellectually gifted kids are talented but not all talented kids are also intellectually gifted and it’s hard to serve both categories. There are already plenty of established programs for kids who are talented in art, music, athletics etc and I feel the skills involved in encouraging talent are very different from developing the gifted mind.</p>

<p>I’d also take exception with the idea that giftedness somehow wears off or gets diluted as the child grows up. From observing my son over the years from pre-school to young adulthood, I’d say his power of analysis and evaluation, the way that he is able to combine abstract thoughts and ideas has only intensified not diminished. He still thinks differently.</p>