<p>I received some very good input on this board a couple of weeks ago re. my son who would like to study Pre-Calc independently in order to make room in his schedule jr/sr years in Hs for more science ... without sacrificing music. The Chairman of the Math department at the HS and the GC both agree that my son is an excellent candidate for the Educational Program for Gifted Youth thru Stanford which we will pursue.</p>
<p>Here is a followon question. My son would like to get through the Pre-Calc program this spring and summer. He is pretty fast with this stuff so I suspect he can do it relatively painlessly. The question then becomes what to take Jr and Sr year. The only other math courses the school offers are AP Calc which my son fully intends to take, and AP Statistics which my son has no intention of taking, much rather preferring one of the AP science classes. </p>
<p>The Math Chair at the HS says that if my son wants to possibly go into engineering (which by the way is not a definite, the kid is only a hs soph) then he should still take a math class in both JR and SR years (in addition to learning Pre-Calc independently). Therefore he recommends AP Calc Jr year and AP stat sr year. </p>
<p>I find this frustrating as the reason that we are pursuing Pre-Calc independently is to make room in the schedule for other important things that do not fit.</p>
<p>Therefore my question to you all is, how badly would it look when applying to a relatively competitive engineering school (probably not MIT, but the next tier below) if my son has on his transcript Honors Geom, Honors Algebra 2, Honors Pre-calc (thru Stanford) and AP Calc .... without AP Stat. In addition having AP Chem and AP Physics. This would mean that there will be one year on his transcript where he is not enrolled in a math class, but rather enrolled in 2 AP sciences. All of this supplemented with 2 years of AP English, and 1 year of AP history, and AP Music theory, etc</p>
<p>the big engineering schools don't consider Stat a math class, even adcoms consider it AP-Lite (not that its a bad course). Thus, I don't believe they would care of your S took it or not. </p>
<p>That being said, could your S take the second level of calc at a junior/local college? Or, the second level course thru EPGY. That would be much more impressive on the app, IMO.</p>
<p>It would be better if he did take another year of math, for the sake of continuity. But not AP-Stats. MIT will not give him credit for a course in which the expected math level is Algebra II. He could consider continuing to take courses through EPGY. It offers college-level courses (Mulitvariable Calculus, Linear Algebra, Differential Equations). This would allow him to set his own pace. If, however, he does not have the time for it, AP-Calc BC should be fine.</p>
<p>I think if he is looking at competitive engineering schools, not having any math senior year might be a red flag. You could try asking a couple of the schools that he may be applying to whether or not that would be the case.</p>
<p>Not having another math is not really an issue at engineering schools. If you are through AP Calc BC, that is as high as any of them expect or hope for and they even take many without Calculus. A number of engineering colleges state a requirement for admission is 3 1/2 or 4 years of math but they generally consider that you have completed the math requirement if you have had Calculus even though you did not do 4 full years in high school. AP stat means little for engineering. If the high school offers AP Physics C that would be a nice alternative, both because it is a science and also because it is partly an applied calculus course.</p>
<p>The more important issue is taking off from a year in math and thus having the opportunity to forget a lot before starting math again in college. The Physics C would likely help prevent that although you might also consider taking a next level math after AP Calc at a local community college.</p>
<p>If the 11th grade class is AP Calculus AB, then do an independent study on BC 12th grade (if doing this kind of thing himself works out for your kid). That's what I did, and it seems to have worked out alright, though I haven't taken the BC exam yet.</p>
<p>If the 11th grade class is BC, then I don't know. Maybe check out a local college?</p>
<p>Don't sweat it. Taking another year of math just to show "4 years of math" in high school is a waste of your son's time. If he takes AP Calculus BC his junior year, he's taken all the math that 90% of all high schools even offer, so he doesn't need to drive himself crazy taking a higher level math class (beyond Calc) unless he WANTS to. His transcript will show 4 years of high school math -- counting the Stanford program -- so he'll be all set and will meet the admissions requirement for all engineering schools. Colleges don't care WHEN the classes are taken. </p>
<p>Also, speaking as a practicing engineer, AP Statistics is not anywhere near as valuable as another AP science course in preparing for college. Particularly if your son is unsure about whether or not he will pursue engineering, you should encourage him to explore all of his interests (including music!) rather than taking a class he really doesn't want to take. It will make him more well-rounded and therefore a more interesting candidate to potential colleges.</p>
<p>If he can show 4 Carnegie Credits in math, including AP-Calc (AB or BC), then I wouldn't worry about it. Does your school offer a 0.5 credit course in trig? But of course, after AP-Calc and AP-Physics, the Trig knowledge would already be there in spades!</p>
<p>It seems that the OP's S is headed toward a career in science/math/engineering. I think the Chairman of the math department is more concerned about the one year without math rather than the absolute level of math achieved. It would be useful to call the adcom or the director of undergraduate studies of a prospective college and find out their take on it. But AP- Stats seems to me the wrong way to go for a student headed down that path.</p>
<p>I have to take issue with the idea that studying math outside of school is a problem for colleges. Specifically, my S took calc BC in 10th grade and linear algebra through EPGY junior year----but never actually finished the linear algebra (nor did he submit an in-progress grade for it with his application).... and was admitted to MIT in May of his junior year. (CalTech waitlisted him.)</p>
<p>I took BC calc jr. year and took a year off math; it has been a regret of mine that I did that (I had no idea I would go into engineering and wanted to have room for other AP classes). I would second that engineering schools wouldn't consider AP stat as a math class. I also second the idea of taking second year calc courses as a sr. should your son become more interested in engineering. Lack of continuity in math courses makes it difficult to come back into the fray.</p>
<p>I would recommend going with the 2 AP sciences instead of stats - they are better preparation and are much more highly regarded. I also agree with Marite that he should consider taking some more courses through EPGY once he has completed calculus.</p>
<p>My S took 2 AP sciences and no math his junior year, even though he was planning to apply to top schools as a math major. We did make sure he was able to take at least one college level math class his senior year, so he wouldn't go 2 full years without a formal math class. He'll be a math major at Princeton next year.</p>
<p>I took AP Calc BC my junior year and no math my senior year. It didn't hurt me when applying to college (I got into caltech), but it was hard getting back into math my first quarter at ucla because I had forgotten so much.</p>
<p>Not disagreeing with anything in particular that was said above, here is a link to a rationale for a course like the AP statistics syllabus course for anyone who is going into a science or engineering discipline. </p>
<p>I think scientists and engineers would have more to contribute to improving public policy if they learned from the best of the AP statistics courses before they started their college studies. But in your particular case, you will have to figure out what crams into the schedule. It is possible to take AP statistics for its own value by distance learning even if you leave it off your high school schedule to make room for other courses. ALEKS </p>
<p>During his senior year in high school, your son may want to take statistics in high school and a higher level course through EPGY. If he is planning on taking pre-calc this summer through EPGY, you may want to contact them right away. The course is scheduled to last 20 weeks, although shaving a few weeks off the projected time is quite doable.</p>
<p>AP Stats is a joke and no respectable science/engineering program would give credit for it. Make sure he takes Calc but Stats isn't necessary unless he wants to have another AP under his belt</p>
<p>We know several people from my daughter's school who were in this situation. All of them were too chicken to find out if it really hurt them to not take math senior year, so they all took AP Statistics.</p>
<p>AP Statistics is taught at (or below) the level of a social sciences intro. statistics class. The mathematical level of the course is a joke to these kids. It is in no way a substitute for the (very mathematical) intro. statistics class that would be offered to engineers, or math majors. Even if you could place out of the engineering intro course by virtue of having taken this AP course, I wouldn't recommend doing so if you planned to take future courses that relied on this as a prerequisite.</p>
<p>At least two of the kids, including my daughter, also took multivariable calculus (calc III) at a local college at night, above and beyond their high school work. </p>
<p>Personally I think if you could substitute this time for something he actually may like, like an independent study research project, that would be a far more productive use of time. But I am not an admissions officer, and I agree that actually calling some admissions people might be a good idea if your son is planning to skip AP stats.</p>
<p>I remember back in my college, something like 70% of the intro "calculus for scientists & engineers" class had previously taken calculus in high school. One could only use the AP to place out of one semester, and then only if you scored a "5" on BC, I believe. These people did no better in that class than the other 30%. The level of the class was far higher than they had previously experienced in the AP class they had taken in high school. </p>
<p>Relying on the AP was fine for my daughter, since she's not pursuing a scientific path. However, if she was, based on my experience I might suggest that she consider not getting too far ahead of the standard science/ engineering class sequence, and possibly retaking intro. calculus despite the AP, if many others at her college were doing likewise.</p>
<p>My son faced the same problem after finishing AP Calc BC in 10th grade. We were lucky to have a university near us where he could take courses concurrently (through extension, but not extension courses). He was worred about getting too far ahead in math and burning out, so he took 2 quarters of honors calc (designed for kids who had received 5s on the AP CalcBC). It was a real challenge and a class he loved. He also took Physics for majors there, which used calculus (which our high school AP physics class didn't). If he can at least use the calculus through physics, it will keep it going in his mind. He enrolled in AP Stat in 12th but found it tedious and dropped it to do multivariable calculus and some other classes at the university. He was accepted by MIT (haven't heard about the others yet).</p>
<p>All, I really appreciate all of this information. It really gives us a lot of options to consider. The reason my son wanted to take Pre-Calc independently was because he wants to free up his schedule to take both AP Chem and AP Physics as a senior without dropping music. If he were to take AP Stat, then it would defeat the purpose. I do agree, as does he, that no math at all senior year may make it a little more difficult to adjust Freshman year in college, so we are considering the possibility of him taking either AP Calc C or AP Phys C thru EPGY during his senior year. My only concern with that is that I dont want to burn him out, as he will be taking a full courseload during both Jr & Sr years, and keeping up with his music, sports (track, x-country, skiing) and scouts, which are also an important part of who he is.</p>
<p>Again, a lot to think about here. What we plan on doing this weekend is putting together a few different variations of schedules for jr and sr year and then going back to get the opinion of the GC.</p>
<p>In the meantime, if I can ask another question, any thoughts on the necessity of a 4th year of history for my son? At this point, he is talking about both AP Euro and AP US history in Jr and Sr years. I see that many schools list only 3 or 4 years of history being required. Would a science oriented school see only 3 years of history as a red flag? I ask, again, because, freeing up his schedule by taking pre-calc independently may not be enough.</p>