@Happytimes2001 I have experienced it very differently. Even with international students the tendency to revert to English will be strong - maybe even stronger than with a group of focused American students!
@CCtoAlaska In a US run program perhaps. But if you are doing a program run by someone outside the US, there will be people from many nations. Many people do US programs and frankly never learn to speak fluently. Immersion is about living and speaking a language in that place. Nothing else matters. You are not going to learn to speak a language in a classroom. You will learn to speak a language in a place. Even children can learn a language if they go to a country.
You likely have learned in a classroom and are biased to that approach. And that’s fine. But talk to someone who has lived the language in a nation that speaks it and you will get a very different response. Hence my previous post ( avoid other English speakers).
I lived abroad for five years immersed in my target language originally as part of an American study abroad group for the first year @Happytimes2001. I was the only one who progressed that year and that was because I was further along in my proficiency when I arrived. The other students gained little. They were not strong enough to push a conversation along. Even in an international environment the other program participants will speak to each other in English if they can or speak to an American in English if they can “at least” polish their English. I firmly believe any native English speaker has to have a “buffer” of knowing at least some of the language to get their foot in the door with native (and nonnative!) speakers of the target language. Immersion is meaningless if everyone chooses to speak to you in your native language. You might pick up everyday expressions for shopping, etc. But you won’t progress much beyond that to a conversational level unless you are very talented or have a special relationship (like a romantic partner or friend who insists on conversation in the target language). Even my genius polyglot friends who pick up languages like they pick up their dry cleaning have these problems with relying on immersion in a world where so many speak English.
@CCtoAlaska That’s nice. And good for you. You obviously have an opinion on the subject which I do not share. So I think you might be traversing into the debate portion on this thread. I’ll leave it at that.
@Happytimes2001 I think often people who are very talented at learning languages “by ear” generalize the usefulness of immersion for the average person. I think you are probably just extremely talented at learning languages :).
Yes, I learn languages easily. And no, my opinion on the subject remains. Immersion works. Even for those who learn slowly.
I think this conversation is conflating purity of language immersion with geography. Programs like Middlebury (and I guess Concordia Villages thought I’m not familiar with their methodology) provide much more than a “classroom” experience, with a formal pledge to speak only the target language and a 24-hour immersion experience that’s designed to ensure that the language is applied in a variety of practical and recreational situations, not just in the classroom.
It’s possible for experiences in a [target language]-speaking country to provide true immersion. It’s also possible for them to fail miserably at providing immersion, or to put the burden of avoiding English onto the individual student to an extent that only the most disciplined and dedicated will make the kind of progress that true immersion produces.
Also, beginner immersion benefits, in my opinion, from a more controlled environment such that the student can manage with a more limited vocabulary without “cheating.”
Immersion works. There are good immersion programs domestically, and poor ones abroad, and vice versa.
@aquapt totally agree. And there are regular language courses that are immersive and ones that are not. I’ve taken language classes in the US that were immersive (meaning the teacher and students only spoke in the target language) and ones that were not - you can probably guess which ones were more effective.
I do somewhat agree with CC2A’s post 23. Some have an affinity for language learning, can easily think through what it takes to converse, find the words. Others, even in France, will just revert to English. And putting any group of beginners together is zero guarantee any will learn from each other’s limited skills.
But I find both styles effective. I learned plenty of French in a US classroom, got off the plane and started listening, reading, and talking. That program included daily issues discussions in small groups. Thinking and speaking.
There’s no real magic, either way. You need to want it.
@lookingforward, yes, that is my point really. The idea that immersion is a magic bullet is an idea that just does not hold water. In my life, the two people I knew with the best English were a Norwegian who had never traveled to an English-speaking country. Her English was indistinguishable from mine. And a dear old friend who learned his English after the war locked behind the Iron Curtain. He learned on his own and it hurt his career but he persisted with it. They both just really wanted it.
OP, I think you need to find the programs, look at costs, and then ask CC for feedback on those. Some programs to foreign countries include the cultural (I mean tourist) aspects, whch can affect costs. Others have you live with a family (which can mean lower pricing.)
Nothing wrong with starting with an intense online course. You can learn the rhythm and enough vocab and grammar to get started.
“I’ve taken language classes in the US that were immersive (meaning the teacher and students only spoke in the target language)”
To me language immersion means that you only speak that language 24/7, including classes, meals, activities, watching TV in the evening, and so on. When my daughter was taking French immersion I even texted her in French (although I will admit that I did text her in French the equivalent of “Google translate is my good friend right now”).
I thought that "the entire class is conducted entirely in " was just the way that languages are taught once you get past the first year or two.
I can recommend AFS. I was an exchange student in Spain for a year after high school. Lived with a great family and attended public high school. Fantastic experience. My son wanted to do the same but AFS no longer takes high school graduates to Spain but if you are a current high school student I believe they offer year long programs or summer ones. Not sure but check it out. My son is on a gap year in Spain taking classes at a language school and living with Spanish friends of ours. Hope it all works out for you!
@massmom2018 what does AFS stand for?
@DadTwoGirls you vision is ideal but the reality is that I’ve only heard of programs like that in the US - Concordia, Middlebury, etc. If you go abroad, you will like be surrounded by other students who speak English plus a local population that speaks English and wants nothing more than to speak to you in English. No one else is obligated to make sure you order your tea in the target language. There is a difference between immersive classes and ones that are not. Frequently, students take 4 years of non-immersive classes in high school and learn next to nothing of a language. I am taking a language class right now that is non-immersive. It is what it is (I’m not paying for it :))
The situation is completely different for non-native English speakers so native English speakers have to have strategies.
Sorry AFS intercultural programs. Google it. It has good exchange programs.
@massmom2018 thanks! I research this every few years and then it goes out of my head. AFS has so many possibilities!
“If you go abroad, you will like be surrounded by other students who speak English plus a local population that speaks English”
In Montreal if I try to speak French, then pretty much everyone immediately switches to English. It is possible to ask people to speak French and some will, but you do have to ask.
In Quebec City at least in my experience the bilingual residents may outnumber the French-only residents. In Montreal or Moncton, there are many English speaking people and many fully bilingual people. I am under the impression that for the program at the university of Moncton, the various places that they visited such as the market where they shopped once per week were chosen to have bilingual employees, and the employees were in on the “only speak French to the students from the university” approach (the university of Moncton is the largest French only university in North America outside of Quebec). In the programs that I am familiar with if the people running the program catch you speaking English, the first time you are warned and the second time you are sent home. However, I have also heard that when the teachers weren’t around, students did speak English.
I am under the impression that some of the activities were chosen to be ones where the vocabulary would be limited, so that they could enforce the “French only” rule while using few enough words that the students could pick up what was going on.
By the way, I am pretty sure that there is a Concordia in the US, and a Concordia in Montreal. The one in Montreal has French classes, but I am not aware of them having any 24/7 immersion programs.
“Frequently, students take 4 years of non-immersive classes in high school and learn next to nothing of a language.”
I fully agree with this. The first 4 or 5 years of my French classes were like this, and were rather bad. Things did get better when I started having French teachers who taught the entire class in French, and got a tutor, and started watching some TV in French (mostly hockey games which are easier to understand relative to normal conversation).
I really wonder wether you could learn a language in three months? I guess it just really matters how much effort you put in