<p>One way to increase your odds at a school is to do research there. At Caltech, we have an REU-like program called SURF (Summer Undergraduate Research Fellowships). It pays $6000 for 10 weeks, and you can work out an extension with your PI to pay for extra time if you like. Food and housing in the dorms is reasonably priced. The timeline is to start contacting profs in November or so, work out a project, then submit a proposal (2-5pgs. approximately) and SURF application. If you SURF here and do well, you could have an "in" with a prof in that department when you apply for grad school. (See [url=<a href="http://surf.caltech.edu%5DSURF%5B/url">http://surf.caltech.edu]SURF[/url</a>] .)</p>
<p>Other schools have similar programs, but this is the one I know best. You should also do research during the academic year at the school you wind up in.</p>
<p>I don't think it's that backwards. It's very hard to find good work in any of the sciences without a Ph.D., except maybe engineering and CS. The OP is reasonable to assume that if he continues in the sciences, he'll need a Ph.D. someday.</p>
<p>But what the OP's really asking is, "How will the reputation of my undergraduate program affect my career prospects?" A valid question, considering the differences in price, quality of life, and location that surely accompany college choice. UG reputation affects our futures whether we go into law school, grad school, business school, or industry. The OP needs to know what that effect would be, so that he can accurately weigh the advantages against the costs.</p>
<p>In the event that personal circumstances require him to choose a school with fewer opportunities or a lower ranking, he wants to know how he can improve his odds of getting into the best schools in whatever field he eventually chooses. Why is that backwards? Everyone wants to do well in their chosen career. The OP doesn't want his decision now to wreck his chances later. (When I was a freshman in high school, I didn't know what I wanted to study or where, but I knew that if I wanted to keep my options open, I should take the most difficult classes, get the best grades I could, and be active in the community. How is that different?)</p>
<p>
[quote]
what the OP's really asking is, "How will the reputation of my undergraduate program affect my career prospects?" A valid question
[/quote]
</p>
<p>And you'll notice we're all perfectly willing to discuss this.</p>
<p>What's ridiculous is the context in which the OP is asking the question. He doesn't have any idea whether he wants to study chemistry, economics, or engineering -- but he knows he wants a PhD from MIT? It's a ridiculous way to go about setting life goals.</p>
<p>Actually, what he's saying is that he knows he wants a Ph.D., and he wants to keep his options open so that he can go to the best schools. MIT and Caltech are just examples of schools that excel in many fields. For example, US News lists MIT as first in chemistry, physics, and engineering, according to their latest grad program rankings. The point is not that he knows he wants to go to MIT, but that he wants to be <em>able</em> to go to MIT, or a similarly prestigious school. He doesn't want to be pigeonholed into a crummy grad program because of his undergrad school.</p>
<p>What's ridiculous about wanting to keep your options open?</p>
<p>snowcapk, thanks for all your support. What you said were all that I was thinking..</p>
<p>I do not want a repeat of my high school life during college.. Here in my country.. we do not really know what it takes to get into a top college.. we were all just very uninformed.. so now I want to start early.. pick a college and do all that I need to have the best shot at top grad schools.. no matter what field I'll end up (which is most certainly in the sciences.. I do not think the physics grad program committee picks their students any differently from a chemistry committee).. </p>
<p>how about you start college and even GET IN first? you might change your mind completely 4 years down the road. To speculate about a life decision that may take 6 years of your life now while still a high schooler is pretty stupid.</p>
<p>^How can you judge that I am stupid just by this thread?.. I think you're too stressful about grad admissions that you're so frustrated by my thread?.. Come on.. </p>
<p>And what's wrong with dreaming about college and grad life?.. I didn't ask you to post.. Post only when you're willingful..</p>
<p>I already got into grad schools. My point is there is more to college than getting into grad schools. Have you considered social life, surroundings, class quality?
To make a college choice based on which school MIGHT get you into a better phD program in what really is a random process shouldn't be an overriding factor. There are more important things to consider. To ask about what college is better for getting into top phD programs isn't a question that can be answered readily. It will come down to you. No matter what school you go to, you will have opportunities as long as you are willing to take initiative. Thats why you see kids from undergrads ranging from top schools to lower schools at top grad schools. They all had great credentials. In the end it will come down to your ability and not where you go to school.</p>
<p>^Congrats then and thanks for your opinion.. but you could have replaced post27 with post29 in the first place instead of labeling someone stupid.. yea.. you're are a grad student.. and so you have the right to label someone dumb?..</p>
<p>I'm not a grad student. And I was not labeling you as stupid but the premise of potentially choosing college based on impact on graduate admissions alone (that IS what you stressed in previous posts) is stupid.</p>
<p>You have the best shot at graduate school if you pick an undergraduate school at which you will be happy to study, happy with your classes, happy with your social life etc. Picking a "better" college that is a poorer fit to your personality is going to mean poorer grades, lessening your chances for graduate school regardless of the "prestige".</p>
<p>First you pick a field. Then you pick a career. Then a degree. Then you pick a school. In that order.</p>
<p>It is legitimate to ask whether a lower-ranked school will close off options for you. That's a legitimate question. The answer is "No -- it might be a little harder at most." The context of the question is absurd. I am not calling you an absurd person, just the way you are approaching this question.</p>
<p>Imagine that you're an international student. For you, college really does cost $160,000 - as much as a decent house, in some cities. To attend, you will have to leave your family, your friends, and your culture. You leave all that for your hopes of a successful career. For you, college really is an investment. If it doesn't propel you into the career you had hoped, you will be saddled with debt and working in a poorly-paid job. You will have sacrificed everything for a pipe dream.</p>
<p>Do any of you realize what rests on this young man's decision? You sit here and tell him to plan his undergraduate experience as if it were a vacation. Social life? Surroundings? You've got to be kidding me! Have you heard of Maslow's hierarchy of needs? Other things have to come first when you experience this sort of hardship. Mom and Dad can't bail you out of $160,000 of debt in a foreign country. That means that probability of future financial security eclipses the quality of the frat scene on your priority list.</p>
<p>So the OP says, "I'm a good student, but I'm not a once-in-a-decade genius. Are the extra opportunities that will be afforded to me at a higher-ranked school worth the additional cost, in terms of my career?" There is nothing absurd, or stupid, or dumb about that. This is actual money out of his actual pocket. This guy literally cannot afford to **** around for a few years after college as a lab tech, pay for a masters degree, or any of the other things that people do to spruce up their grad school applications if they don't get in the first time. I'm sure the OP would be ecstatic if he had the luxury of taking things one step at a time, as some of you have suggested. But he just doesn't.</p>
<p>Moreover, for each field he's considering, I'll bet he has one or two careers in mind, and chances are that a Ph.D. is required for all of them. So don't say, "How can you know you want a Ph.D. if you haven't nailed down a field?" Also don't say, "How can you know that you want a Ph.D. from the best university possible?" The advantages in terms of job placement and salary are well-documented.</p>
<p>have you seen the list of schools hes applying to? A ****load will give him aid as an international. And if he claims hes not a genius, then why is he applying to all these top schools? Point of the matter is the questions he is asking are stupid BECAUSE HE HASN'T GOTTEN IN YET. Everything we tell him is moot as he is counting his chickens before they have hatched so to speak.</p>
<p>Just for a point of clarification. The possibility of the OP partaking in REUs is out of the question as he is an international student. These programs are for permanent residents of the US, after all, they are funded by the NSF. </p>
<p>I tend to agree with bluedevilmike on this one. The question being posed is certainly legitimate, but I also question the approach. The reason you should desire a PhD is because you love the field that you are getting into. If you don't even know the field, how do you know you really want a PhD? You don't even know what doors it would open or what you would be doing with it, so how could you possibly want it? A lot can change over the course of 4 years, find something you love now and go from there.</p>
<p>I feel like the tone of this thread has been PhD or bust for the OP and it seems like the wrong approach. Find something you love to study first, the option of getting a PhD in this field will always be there later.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Moreover, for each field he's considering, I'll bet he has one or two careers in mind, and chances are that a Ph.D. is required for all of them. So
[/quote]
Okay. Maybe the OP will bear out your faith in him.</p>
<p>OP, what one or two careers did you have in mind for:
Physics
Chemistry
Economics
Engineering</p>
<hr>
<p>And, OP, when you said:
[quote]
Is there anything that I can do to get into a MIT/Caltech grad program in math/physics?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Snowcap's interpretation is that:
[quote]
MIT and Caltech are just examples of schools that excel in many fields.
[/quote]
Is this correct, or do you really want MIT or CalTech?</p>
<p>MIT and Caltech are definitely JUST examples.. they are just good examples to point out concerning grad programs in the sciences (I AM NOT defending snowcapk just because he was rooting for me!)</p>
<p>As I said.. I regard Physics, Chem, Econ, Engineering as ONE field = Sciences.. and the chem committee won't choose prospective grad students any differently from the physics committee.. I am going to stick with the sciences.. so I DON'T think it matters whether it's bio or physics..</p>
<p>To everyone who even bothers to visit this thread, I am grateful but I just want opinions on this thread.. give if you want to.. leave if you don't want to.. and I don't care whether this is a premature thread..</p>
<p>You guys can afford to take college as another step in life.. I can't.. You learn to be more PRAGMATIC in life when you do not have the choices.. Can you imagine leaving your family with high hopes and in the end you come back with debts instead? Snowcapk, you seem to really understand my situation.. Were you in my shoes before?</p>