<p>right now i m a senior in US high school, and am planning on going to med school abroad. Not only will i be done with my MBBS in 5 years, i will, utlimately, save alot of money. Thus, i was wondering, what are the suggestions..is it a good idea?
I will not have to deal with MCAT, just direclty take the USMLEs, and apply for residency in USA...Will foreign med students have a rigorous time getting residencies??</p>
<p>Unless you are from a foreign country and are at a US HS b/c of a foreign exchange program, I think that it's a horrible idea.</p>
<p>BlueDevilMike has posted on here many times that many residency programs will only accept IMG (international medical graduates) students if they are actual citizens of the country the school is located in. While I wasn't aware of this until he said it, I'm sure that this does happen. So going to med school in Aruba is great, if you are a citizen of Aruba.</p>
<p>I do know for certain though, that many of the competitive (and even a lot of the not-so-competitive) specialties will be closed off to you. The only specialties that end up being open for IMGs are ones in which US M4's don't apply in numbers large enough to fulfill the demand (Pathology in particular). If you try for something like ortho, ophtha, or derm you will have basically 0% chance of getting accepted.</p>
<p>Further, the statistics show that while about 93% of US M2's pass Step 1 on the first try, and 74% of Osteopathic students pass first try , they also show that only 65% of IMG's pass on the first try. It makes sense that if you are simply less likely to pass in the first place that you are also far less likely to get a high score that will improve your chances of getting a residency you want. </p>
<p>Even more so, without the proper undergrad education, you are going to be so far behind your peers that it will be sickening. How are you going to "get" the biochemistry, if you've never had a organic, let alone the equivalent of a second semester of general chemistry? (the entire year of my regular HS chem course was covered in the about the first 6-8 weeks of my first semester gen chem course). You are putting yourself at an even further disadvantage than you would otherwise be if you graduated from a US college and went internationally for medical school.</p>
<p>Beyond those academic issues, there are numerous issues of just going to a foreign country as an 18 year old. Being on your own is difficult for anyone even if you are only 45 minutes from your parents, but to be an entirely different part of the world - it's got to be rough.</p>
<p>Sorry if this is harsh, and I do want to reiterate that my criticism is aimed at you being a US citizen and going through with this plan.</p>
<p>I'd take it a step further than BRM, actually.</p>
<p>I don't think it's citizenship that US residencies care about. I think it's actually where you're FROM. In other words, you might be able to obtain Grenada citizenship, but that's not going to get you around the requirement. You have to have grown up there, I believe.</p>
<p>Furthermore, I've recently discovered that at least a few US residencies require you to return to said "home country" after completion of US residency for a period of time.</p>
<p>I have talked to doctors who are IMGs from Europe. They are American citizens, but went there to do their 4 years of med school. Many IMGs from Europe do their 3rd and 4th year hospital stuff here, usually they split half here, in the U.S. and half in whatever country their school is in.
The pass rates for the USMLEs are scewed to all hell though. The problem is many people who would never in a million years have a shot at med school here, go there. They have horrible grades, a horrible attitude and they spend all the money but never get to practice and never pass the exams. At the same time many very capable students who have the grades but never had the luck to get in, in the U.S. go there and get their degree, study their behinds off, get great USMLE scores, come back to the U.S. and have the same doors open for them as U.S. students, especially if they have high USMLE scores. Many hospitals take IMGs and many don't.
For my two cents I think if you want to do IMG, go to Europe. Britain, Ireland, etc will give you a good medical eduction, but it will cost a pretty penny. There are also the Eastern European countries, with medical schools that are older then most American Universities, like Charles University in Prague, a very old very good med school and Jagiellonian, another very old and extremely well respected medical school in Europe. There programs have been making doctors since the 1500s, they have it down pat, unlike even some U.S. med schools.</p>
<p>well i am from pakistan and know alot of people who are studying there. There say the studies are rigorous in pk (comparable to US med school), and that undergrad in US is a waste of time, and money when one can go to pk and start studying courses that are offered in US med school, right after high school.
Some of them even did this practice in John Hopkins last summer, and another in Upenn.
Now as far as the USMLEs scores are concerned, these IMGs are in a risk, such that if their scores are not high enough, they will not land in a good residency. Now if they get hardly the passing grade in part I 76%, yes, we can say, it will be dang hard for them to find a residency. I guess one should keep in mind when studying there,right from freshamn year, that one has to look forward to these USMLE tests...</p>
<p>No, no, no. There are many residencies that will not be open to you no matter how well you score on USMLE, and others that will be open if and only if you score very, very well. Even if you get a 260, you will STILL be facing a huge uphill battle.</p>
<p>ok so what if i stay here and dont do so well on the MCAT? (like say a 24) This means that my undergrad is a waste, but if i am actually there, i will just aim for one goal: get a high USMLE score.</p>
<p>I would never say that undergrad is a waste. you never know what might happen, and you might find a career that you never knew existed that is a much better fit for you than medicine. Plus, if you do it right, it will be by far the best four years of your life. I mean, if I wasn't in medical school right now I'd be pursuing a job I never knew existed until I was a freshman, and one that I would have never thought about actually pursuing until I was a junior. </p>
<p>The fact is that you are looking for the safest route, for a situation in which there are few if any absolutely safe paths. Part of going to medical school in the US is sticking with it. What you consider safe is really just putting off the risks. Going to a foreign school is safe and easy right now, but perilous later on, while the opposite is true for staying in the US. I mean what the difference between saying if you go abroad and get a low (barely passing) USMLE score? Then what? Is it a waste if you can't practice in the US? You have to answer that question for yourself.</p>
<p>So which path is it going to be? I guess it depends on your personality, but if I had to make the choice I would rather take the risks and then get the payoff assured, rather than the other way around. </p>
<p>And I think youre the first HSer on here to ever say that they were going to do poorly on the MCAT - most think they are going to get a 39.</p>
<p>Bigredmed you haven't been on the east coast too much eh? There are tons of opportunities for IMGs who are U.S. citizens around here. Yes some schools won't take you regardless but others will, and of those others there are very many of them. Cali for now wont take some euro med schools, but those schools are working on that. I stand by what I said because I have deeply looked into it, and might even choose to do it over U.S. med school even if I get in here. There are just as many opportunities around where I am from IMGs as regular U.S. meds. Two hospitals I know of around here have a bunch of IMGs from Europe doing their residencies in all forms of surgery and other specialties.</p>
<p>Don't forget, BND, that med school in London is probably quite different from med school in Grenada.</p>
<p>Yea, the one in London isnt a factory, whereas the one in Grenada is. U.S. residency programs dont like Carribean grads all too much, but they are more keen on European grads due to the fact that they are almost exactly like U.S. programs especially in Britain/Ireland. Same languages, same exact technology, everything is pretty much the same except for the insurance/privacy system.</p>
<p>"And I think youre the first HSer on here to ever say that they were going to do poorly on the MCAT - most think they are going to get a 39"</p>
<p>haha...yea us pakistanis tend to be really realistic..sometimes to the pt of pessimism lol</p>
<p>
[quote]
What you consider safe is really just putting off the risks. Going to a foreign school is safe and easy right now, but perilous later on, while the opposite is true for staying in the US. I mean what the difference between saying if you go abroad and get a low (barely passing) USMLE score?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>i do agree with you on this part, but because i am so motivated in pursuing a career in medicine that i would feel dejected when i see that i wasn't able wo do well on MCAT. Ofcourse, i am being pessimistic because things like these can happen; that is why considerig them now is better than considering them in 4 years from now when i will say to myself, "ok, i guess i chose the wrong path; i should have gone to a foreign med school; i would have been a doctor right now."</p>
<p>obviously, i would take months to study for USMLES until i get a high enough score. What scares me most about doing pre med from here is not scoring well on MCAT. That's all</p>
<p>BND - I'm just posting the stats that I have access to. From my personal experience, it is rare to ever really ask a doctor where they received their training and so there is a difference between an IMG and a doctor who went to a US medical school but just happens to be foreign. I have no doubt that Europe is more highly thought of than the Carribean.</p>
<p>I know from my own experience and my mothers about Americans trained in Europe practicing here. A fairly well known ortho in my area has a resident training under him who is an American citizen but went to Poland for med school. Here on the East coast though I suspect it is more common to encounter these types of docs especially around my area with many immigrants from those parts of Europe. Lots of these people with kids who were born here, send them there for schooling.</p>
<p>Listen, the general consensus is for you to stay here in US. The ultimate point is:</p>
<p>The difficulty of you getting into Med School in US < difficulty of you finding a residency in USA after you get your MBBS degree.</p>
<p>Thus, if you have expectations of getting a 24 on MCAT with a low GPA in undergrad, are you also expecting a high USMLE score? When you think in the long run, especially when you are missing out on all the premed requirements plus that rigorous college academic environment in the US, ask yourself if you honestly think that you are going to ace the USMLES, get your foreign degree, and get a residency spot?</p>
<p>well since MCAT is a whole different test from USMLEs, I think i would be able to study USMLEs and be able to geta good score. While MCAT, the reading passages, there is no way i will be able to get a high score if i have a 6 right now...Thus, saying that I bomb the verbal section on MCAT, that brings my other scores down. While USMLES material consists of knowledged based on subjects of histology, human a& P, I think if i study hard enough, i could achieve a satisfactory score. </p>
<p>As far as saying that the I will not get a rigorous environment to work in, well, i would have to say there is a lot of competition over there. </p>
<p>I am just concerned about my residency spot. We (IMGs) would have to be adept at interviewing skills inonrder to beat all the other US applicants.</p>
<p>please show me some other negative sides to my decision
(affirmative facts/ opinions would be helpful as well)</p>
<p>First, US schools note that the strongest predictor of your USMLE score, by far, is your MCAT score. Doing poorly on one is, statistically speaking, strongly correlated with doing poorly on the other. (Evidence: Studies cited to me in personal interaction with directors of medical education at several medical schools.)</p>
<p>Second, it's absolutely stupid of you - no holds barred, even from the board's Southern boy - to be basing your decision off of your MCAT score as an 18 year old! Not to mention that this is pre-studying! I ended up improving by four points over the course of eight weeks starting from a higher point. It'll go up considerably based purely on a normal college courseload.</p>
<p>Finally, what other negative sides could we possibly show you?! Your residency options will be extremely stressful and limited (not able to apply for the majority of US residencies based on location and specialty, forced to go back to your "home country" afterwards for years), being isolated in a foreign country for several years, having no backup options if this (as is likely) fails, placing yourself in a position to do poorly once you do get here, and robbing yourself of a college education. Could there possibly be any other negatives?</p>
<p>If your plan is not going to change no matter what we suggest, then what exactly are you looking for?</p>
<p>hey dell...if you are really that concerned about grades and stuff...it would be just better to go to a small college in the USA where you can get high grades and not worry too much about all this "what ifs" if you go to a FMS...and every college in the country will teach you the material that is gonna be on the MCAT</p>
<p>however...if you really think this is the way you need to go and your parents agree with you...then there is always a place in Toledo, Ohio for you when you come back for residency...lol There are a TON of foreign doctors and the new trend among the indians/pakistanis is actually what you are talking about...probably cause Toledo is one of those cities where getting a residency just isn't that hard and you can get into w/e besides pretty much surgery, dermatology, radiology</p>
<p>but i guess it depends on your interest in where to work, and what you are planning to go into. If you don't mind going into Internal Medicine for example you will most likely get a job here if you do well on the USLME especially in small cities/rural areas...that's why a lot of kids just go that route here, cause they know they can get a job when they come back and their dads who are usually doctors too usually help them get a job too</p>
<p>But as someone who has also considered the going foreign plan and as the first child of an immigrant family to the US to go through the US system for the first time to make it into medicine (and I'm pretty much the guinea pig here who has gone through all the faults) i would still recommend going the US route...as a foreigner, you are sort of looked down on, and you always have to prove yourself worthy more than the USMG's is what I think through what I've seen</p>
<p>ok lets say i do my undergrad from here and dont do well on MCAT, despite my 4.0 gpa, i would be crestfallen for the rest of my life since i would regret that i should have gone to a foreign med school , and atleast would have come out to be a doctor, and doing residency in some cheap area, or say TOLEDO. What it is iz taht i only have one goal in my life, to be a doctor, and if my MCAT score doesn't come out to be so optimal, i would be doomed in my respect,since everyting ihave worked for it for this ambition. Yes, there will not be many resideny spots available for me, but there are some cheapest places wher i would get into. </p>
<p>Internal medicine would be alright, but i was thinking of doing cardiology or so to speak, anesthiology. Doing meds from there would give me an opportunity to work with many patients, and there are many(poor).</p>
<p>also my parents are not doctors; yes that it a NEGATIVO on my side, but i guess i would do some intership in summer so that i could befriend some doctors, and will have a chance in later on for a residency spot.
Also, genreally speaking, what should a senior's verbal score be on MCAT?? (i just want to know where i should be)</p>
<p>and
[quote]
no holds barred, even from the board's Southern boy
[/quote]
i am a southern..lol</p>