Lawrenceville averages 47 students per year to the Ivies alone. That is 23% of the class. If you have a public that is sending 23% of their students to an Ivy, that isn’t what people normally refer to as a public high school.
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Because many state flagship universities are selective, based on GPA and test scores. However, admissions to the state flagship is almost always an option for high achieving kids in solid middle class high schools. Exceptions are places like UVA which think that they are an “elite” private college, and have admission policies which focus on maintaining a student population that is similar to “elite” private colleges.
Kansas, Iowa, UMN, Alabama, Rutgers, OSU, SUNY Buffalo, etc, are all available to middle class kids from middle class high schools. Those colleges cover the vast majority of the population of the US. UT Austin is an auto admit to the top 6% of any solid middle class high school in Texas. There are places like Virginia, but they are in the minority.
On the other hand, it is extremely difficult, or even impossible, for poor kids to be accepted to these schools or to attend if they are accepted.
That makes sense, though “middle class” differs. At most of the “elite” colleges, families that are in the middle class are considered “low income”.
However,
That hook is far overstated. Acceptance rates of low income kids is only slightly higher than for wealthy kids (@Data10 provided the info for Harvard a while back), so being poor is not that much of a hook.
Moreover, much of the higher acceptance rate for poor kids has to do with the fact that a poor kid who is applying to an “elite” college is generally extremely highly qualified. A student has to be pretty outstanding for GCs at low income schools to think “we need to get this kid to apply to Yale”. A large number of the poor kids who apply to “elite” colleges are also kids who attended “elite” boarding schools on a scholarship, so they have already attracted attention.
My point is that, once they have reached the point of being a high achieving applicant, low income kids stand out a lot. The amount of effort that they need to put into reaching that point is far larger than that required by middle class kids.
However, when it comes to cost, the donut hole is real. Families with relatively high income but low wealth are at a disadvantage. First generation high (ish) income generally make enough to require higher EFC than they can afford, since they have a fairly large amount of their income is going into things like mortgage payments, retirement, helping family members, etc.
That being said, public in-state universities, including flagships, are almost always affordable for donut hole families. This is especially true for high achieving kids who will generally be offered a good amount of merit funding.
I can’t love this story enough!
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I know - it is one of my favorite college admission-related stories!
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Agree with most of what has already been said here. Certainly, an ELITE private prep school can offer an advantage in college admissions. Although there are plenty of graduates from such schools that go to non-elite colleges.
However, it is quite presumptuous of the student in the OP’s initial post to assume that he would easily be at the top of the class, at the local public HS unless the public HS is not very challenging. In that case, however, being at the top of the class may not be a ticket to a top college.
As others have said, pick the HS that is right for your student - the courses offered, the counseling, the extra curricular activities, etc. And also take a clear-eyed look at your child. Are they highly motivated? Will they get involved? Do they study independently? If they are, they will do fine on college admissions, even if they are disappointed by elite colleges.
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Just added it up on Naviance for the 8 Ivys and it was 49. It’s a public school; not a charter, magnet or technical school. They accept every student who lives in the district.
Of course that’s a much smaller ratio since their typical class size is about 425 students.
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It that per year? I haven’t looked at It in a few years, but some of the data is multiple years. Also, the numbers I gave were attending not accepted.
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One year. Representative of typical. Every year will be a bit different so you would never have “per” year.
It sounds like you are describing Princeton High School. If so, that isn’t a normal high school.
Will have to agree to disagree I suppose. Looked back at middle kid’s graduation year from public HS (we only have one HS in the district, so nothing special about the student population).
Our public HS has about 300 kids per class, though middle kid’s class was a bit under that. 12 kids to the Ivies, then some other good/elite schools such as MIT, Caltech, Amherst (2), Georgetown (2), Duke, NYU (5), etc. - you get the idea. Decent results, though nothing spectacular.
A recent year for the private school I was thinking about - 9 to Ivies, MIT (3), NYU (5), Georgetown (3), UChicago, Williams (2). There are more good/elite schools on the private school list, though what I noted represents more than a third of the class.
I know some of these kids. Yes, some are legacies (both from the public and private schools). Yes, some are “rich-kid” athletes, if you mean things like crew and lacrosse, which are sports that have been offered at area private and public schools for a long time (at least the last 60 years). However, I know kids who are just decent students, nice but nothing special ECs, and the kids from private school fair much better than the public school kids in college admissions.
Though someone will probably say that a public school that serves sushi and has cross-country skiing for gym class when it snows (even though it isn’t a very snowy area) isn’t a normal HS.
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Looking at matriculation totals in isolation like this tells you almost nothing about whether the high school attended had an influence in chance of admission to a highly selective college. Some additional important factors that can distort totals are:
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How many well qualified students applied to the listed colleges?
As a general rule kids who apply to selective private high schools are far more likely to also apply to selective private colleges than kids who attend non-selective public HSs. It’s much more relevant to compare admit rate for similarly qualified applicants than to look at matriculation totals in isolation. -
Does the private school have selective admissions or is otherwise biased such that there is a high concentration of well qualified students?
Selective high schools have selective admission, often by a similar type of criteria used by selective colleges. If the selective admission criteria of the high school results in having a high concentration of well qualified students, then the high school is expected to have a larger number of admits to selective colleges. The high schools with the highest matriculation rate to Ivy+ type colleges are often extremely selective, in some cases similarly selective to Ivy+ colleges. -
Does the private high school have a high rate of hooked kids? How does admit rate compare for unhooked kids?
The private high schools with the highest rate of admission to Ivy+ colleges often have a high rate of hooked kids, particularly at colleges located near the high school. These hooks can include legacies, athletes, children of faculty, persons making large donations, etc. The admit rate for well qualified hooked kids is often very different than the admit rate for well qualified unhooked kids. A difference in rate of hooks between different high schools can have a large influence on the difference in rate of matriculations.
Few private high schools post this type of information, with good reason. Just listing a large number of matriculations looks much better for the high school’s publicity than posting more detailed stats that may show low admit rates for well qualified, unhooked kids; in some cases lower admit rates than would occur for similarly qualified kids at the nearby public HS.
Harvard-Westlake is one of the few HSs that publishes specific admit rates by class rank. A summary is below for kids “without distinction” in the highest GPA grouping, over the 2018-2020 period (before large drop in admit rates in 2021,2022). Something interesting is clearly going on with Chicago, and I’d expect that something about attending HW does increase chance of admission to Chicago, but the others are not as clear.
For example, the top GPA + top score kids who applied to MIT had a 6/29 = 21% acceptance rates. That’s significantly higher than the average acceptance rate for top stat kids to MIT. However, it’s unclear whether what was special about the 6 kids who were admitted would have also occurred had they attended a different HS. HW averages 98-99th percentile test scores, so they probably have some kids who score well in other tests as well. Suppose some of the 6 MIT admits competed at the national level in math contests, which was one factor that impressed MIT. Maybe the math contests wouldn’t have happened without HW. Or maybe MIT would be equally impressed by something else the students did at the local public HS. It’s difficult to say.
Admit Rates for Highest GPA Kids at Harvard Westlake
Yale – 10/42 = 24% accepted
Chicago – 8/37 = 22% accepted
MIT – 6/29 = 21% accepted
Princeton – 3/26 = 11.5% accepted
Harvard – 5/58 = 8.6% accepted
Stanford – 4/51 = 7.8% accepted
Admit Rates for 3.6 to 3.8 GPA Kids at Harvard Westlake
Chicago – 17/36 = 47% accepted
MIT – <1 per year (too small sample)
Yale – <1 per year (too small sample)
Harvard – <1 per year (too small sample)
Stanford – <1 per year (too small sample)
Princeton – 0 acceptances
What is more clear, is aside from Chicago, the admit rate was not good at the listed HYPSM… for unhooked kids who did not have high GPA/rank within the selective private HS. By definition, most kids who attend a particular high school will not have a high rank within that HS. At selective HSs, achieving a high GPA/rank is often not a trivial matter, with rigorous classes that are full of exceptional kids. The high concentration of exceptional kids can also influence other parts of the application. For example, LORs might be less likely to talk about being the best in years than at an open admission public HS.
I also think that difference it outcome will vary widely from one student to the next. Some student thrive as the big fish in a less selective group and may get discouraged when average. Others get pushed to new heights when surrounded by a highly selective peer group. Some students take advantage of increased resources and opportunities, and some get stressed/overwhelmed. The best option will differ from one kid to the next.
There are many reasons why a selective, private schools might be a better option than the local public for a particular kid; but I wouldn’t recommend putting much weight on published Ivy+ matriculation totals in that decision.
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I don’t have all the stats needed to do this analysis. Maybe I could find much of the info you seek, though it would take me some time.
Yes, it is an open admission, non-selective public HS. Average SAT from most recent year available, 2019, is 1305. Average SAT at the private school I am looking at is about 100 points higher (just over 1400).
Many kids from both schools apply to selective colleges. Perhaps I could figure out some admit rates if I carefully went through Naviance, though it would take some time.
Private school does have selective admissions. I am not certain what they use these days, though I recall taking the WISC or something similar to be admitted. I was four years old, so probably was WPPSI. Public school has high concentration of well qualified students as well, though obviously not all are well qualified.
Both public and private have some hooked kids, including legacy, parents who work at elite schools (including an Ivy), athletes in sports like crew, lacrosse, field hockey, etc. Also have some academic standouts. My older two had a couple of kids in their respective classes that had completed all math courses the public HS had to offer (multi-variable calc) by end of 8th grade. One kid made USAMO every year from 8th grade on.
Neither HS ranks, though there are ways to figure out who is among the top 5-10%.
Obviously, the USAMO kid had great college acceptances. Kids with lesser achievements at the public HS, college acceptance results not as good as private school. These are just two schools in the area, and results are similar at other area public and private schools.
Likewise my S22 didn’t ED anywhere. Without an actual guarantee of merit aid we knew we wouldn’t be able to afford most privates. The added irony is that I work at one of them.
Such connections may not necessarily influence admission decisions, but may be useful in helping the college counselors (who presumably are dedicated to college counseling, rather than all of the other things that counselors deal with) encourage students toward applying to elite colleges that are most likely to see those specific students as good fits (from the colleges’ point of view), rather than those which are unlikely to see those specific students as good fits.
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Thanks so much for that link. It is most definitely my favorite story for college admissions. Maybe ever. Such an inspiring counselor - she needs a bonus AND a raise.
She motivated and encouraged and supported, with humor and determination, and her results (theirs, clearly, but they needed her!) are stellar.
The head of CC at out school when DS was there had been the AD at a very selective LAC immediately prior to coming to our school.
The real benefit, imho, was that she understood how an AO would read an application-- the importance of having it all hang together, of standing out, demonstrating fit. And when AOs visited the school and talked about what was going on at their schools, she knew how to “translate” that into the colleges’ needs. Beefing up your classics department? A good bet for the kid who has been enthralled by latin and greek. Inviting your first Questbridge class to campus? A good bet for the kids who were the social glue in a diverse class.
And she was so familiar with the landscape that when she said “Your kid is a terrific human being but everything terrific about him is pretty much table stakes at xyz school”, you understood what the odds were.
Afaik, she never made those calls for students - that was contrary to our school’s culture. But the perspective was really helpful, even in talking through what benefit an ED strategy might have.
This is one of the reasons I suggest that folks who are considering hiring a private CC choose one who has been an AO. Kinda like walking through a flea market with an antiques dealer-- they have developed an eye for what they’re looking for.
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If the AOs are familiar with these particular counselors and trust their opinion, they may give more weight to the counselors’ recommendations. Of course, if the counselors want to maintain good relationships with these colleges they also have to make sure that they are directing students who are good fits (and ones who will attend if accepted).
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@MWolf , so true. I know that the CC visited my kid at college (and the college’s admissions team) and had dinner with him to get his feedback. The team really prided themselves on making good matches - for the students and for the colleges.