hmm..the draft?

Pre-College Issues High School Life
41

<p>Let me put it this way:</p>

<p>Random Bob, I agree with you.</p>

<p>IWantWharton, you speak like a damned fool. You are passionate about a subject that you know nothing about. You try and use big words to make it seem like you know what you're talking about, but you DON'T (eg. "judicial precedent", "quasi-opposed", etc.) Just say what you mean. </p>

<p>The cold hard truth of the matter is that the US Draft, however legal it is, is IMMORAL. Literally forcing people to sign up into a career path that they are morally/ religiously opposed to is wrong, though in the eyes of the US government it's legal. They claim that you are fighting for your freedoms, but let me ask you something: Just how many senators' sons or congressmens' daughters fight in the army? Hmm? Not many. Wait.. that's an understatement. MAYBE a handful. We're fighting so that these bigwig politicians can continue to get fat off our sweat and blood. We fight so that the president can make $250,000+ a year while paying no expenses, so that he can go golfing five times a week and feel secure at night. Not because of some damned freedoms like "freedom of speech."</p>

<p>Getmetocollege, I have to respectfully disagree with your opinions. Here's why:</p>

<p>"First off, why is there all this talk about a draft when we all know that a draft is completely out of teh question and will NEVER happen anytime soon (within 50 years)."</p>

<p>1-You are neither George W. nor a good friend of his, therefore you have no CLUE if the draft will be reinstated as do the rest of us. We are all simply spectators, outsiders looking with opinions (many of them erroneous (eg. Iwantwharton)) The truth is that the draft could come back at anytime. And where do you get this 50 years figure? It makes absolutely no sense.</p>

<p>"We have a strong army and military..."
2-True, but...</p>

<p>"...and their memberships and supply arent dwindling."
3-uhhh... <a href="http://icasualties.org/oif/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://icasualties.org/oif/&lt;/a> = 2267 casualties since Iraq first started. Looks like dwindling to me.</p>

<p>"Second, so what if there was a draft!?"
4-^^^ Contradiction of your earlier point about a draft not coming for 50 years.</p>

<p>"Are you guys going to sit here and complain about your liberal and 13th amendment rights and missing college (OH NO! NOT COLLEGE!!!"
5-Uhh.. your username if "getmetocollege". First of all, this discussion is not at it's root about skipping the draft to go to college. What it is TRULY about is being MORALLY OPPOSED to a military draft and if opposing said draft is not illegal, but right or wrong in terms of supporting a country that guarantees certain rights for it's citizens. Second, you call yourself getmetocollege, so don't act as if you don't care about higher education. </p>

<p>"...or are you going to get up and go fight for the country that has given you every single right that you have deserved and that people in other countries can only dream about?"
6-Some of us aren't here by choice. Don't be that close-minded to believe that everyone who lives in the US loves it and would do anything to stay. Some of us live here only because our parents love it here, and we cannot move.</p>

<p>"Honestly, you sit here and bash the president and war and his policies, but remember that only in America do you have the right to openly express your opinions like that! Isn't worth fighting for....."
7-Who's bashing? I'm simply disagreeing with the poor decisions that George W. Bush makes and the current constitutionality of the Draft to which I am morally opposed. Others reading this thread are agreeing with me, and I am arguing my points. No one here is bashing anything. Second of all, America is not the only country in the world that has free speech. There are PLENTY of other countries that do. Lastly, the so-called FREE SPEECH that we all treasure is fundamentally limited. There are still things that we cannot say: example: making a death threats to the president.</p>

<p>Desertsea, I think you're right about this: "I don't know about this, but I'm pretty sure that if you're drafted, you don't necessarily have to go into combat... you can help out with other military/war-related stuff.", but the whole issue is not just about dying in combat. It's about supporting a country's war that you don't BELIEVE in. So even filing papers for the army most conscientious objectors would be morally opposed to.</p>

42

<p>"The cold hard truth of the matter is that the US Draft, however legal it is, is IMMORAL. Literally forcing people to sign up into a career path that they are morally/ religiously opposed to is wrong, though in the eyes of the US government it's legal. They claim that you are fighting for your freedoms, but let me ask you something: Just how many senators' sons or congressmens' daughters fight in the army? Hmm? Not many. Wait.. that's an understatement. MAYBE a handful. We're fighting so that these bigwig politicians can continue to get fat off our sweat and blood. We fight so that the president can make $250,000+ a year while paying no expenses, so that he can go golfing five times a week and feel secure at night. Not because of some damned freedoms like "freedom of speech.""</p>

<p>No the draft is not immoral. If we didn't institute the draft the US would have been divided from the Civil War, Europe would be ruled by Germany, Asia would be ruled by Japan. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Are you saying if another nation's or your own was in dire need you would be so selfish as to not step up if randomly selected? Lets also look at something, out of the presidents who have led the country during war, 5 of them had served in the armed forces during a previous war, Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Nixon, Bush senior. Most presidents are not as ignorant as you make them out to be and know the responsibilities of going to war. We may have invaded Iraq for the wrong reasons but we are there now and NO ONE can deny Saddam was a mass murderer (a real mass murderer, mind you) and the Iraqi people will soon be better off.</p>

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<p>"Most presidents are not as ignorant as you make them out to be and know the responsibilities of going to war."
-What about our current president, GWB? He's quite the dumbass.</p>

<p>"and the Iraqi people will soon be better off."
-we said the same thing about the Vietnamese and look where that attitude got us...</p>

44

<p>"If we didn't institute the draft the US would have been divided from the Civil War, Europe would be ruled by Germany, Asia would be ruled by Japan."</p>

<p>-oh yeah, none of the above is fact. So throw that out the window as well. = you're wrong.</p>

<p>NEXT!</p>

45

<p>nice rebuttal man, oh wait, not.</p>

46

<p>Rbase7...You clearly don't listen.</p>

<p>I OPPOSE THE DRAFT, BUT IT IS COMPLETELY LEGAL! And unless you're stupid, there have been numerous supreme court and federal cases regarding the draft, thus a "judicial precedent" has been set declaring the legality of the draft. Simply put, whether you agree with it morally, it is completely legal.</p>

<p>As for "quasi-opposed," that simply means somewhat opposed. I don't see what's so complex about that.</p>

<p>Just like most bomb-throwing radicals, you attack the words instead of the actual point: that it's completely legal.</p>

47

<p>No, he was reading. He said the draft is legal, but immoral.</p>

48

<p>
[quote]
Are you saying if another nation's or your own was in dire need you would be so selfish as to not step up if randomly selected?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I would not oppose the draft if our nation was in true dire need.
But when I see the white house going to war against some country halfway around the world that we have absolutely no business in, I doubt the adminstration's ability to tell "dire need" from "monkey business"</p>

49

<p>ME: "The cold hard truth of the matter is that the US Draft, however legal it is, is IMMORAL."</p>

<p>IWantWharton: "Simply put, whether you agree with it morally, it is completely legal."</p>

<p>And yet I "clearly don't listen." Riiiiight.....</p>

50

<p>Ok, but you can justify avoiding the draft or use "morals" as a basis for rejecting. Law is the only thing that matters. I thought it was always the left that were against "legislating morality."</p>

51

<p>just because something is legal doesn't mean that it's ethical. The law can allow you to do something and you may still go to hell for it. That's the whole basic premise of my argument. Morality is a hell of a lot more important than legality. You can believe that. If you don't believe it, then you're an atheist.</p>

52

<p>I admire your sentiments, but there are flaws in your reasoning. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with you; I just want to make a few points.</p>

<p>1) You are confusing ethics with morality. There is a distinct difference.
2) It is entirely possible to be moral without having religious affiliations.
3) Bush is not an idiot, although his odd "Bushisms" may seem to indicate it. We have had several idiotic/incapable presidents (Grant, for example). If you, I, or most other people were suddenly shoved into his shoes, I'm not so sure we could do a better job. True, Bush is not a perfect president, but neither has he led us down the road to rack (only Iraq :p)and ruin. Remember, only Congress can declare war- and they are at least as guilty as Bush for sending troops over to Iraq. </p>

<p>I'm not a Bush fan, but I do think we should show support for the government. If there's something wrong with it, FIX IT! It's one thing to complain about the system or whine that something is unfair. It's something quite different to actually do something about it.</p>

53

<p>"You are confusing ethics with morality. There is a distinct difference."</p>

<p>-such as? Please do elaborate.</p>

<p>"It is entirely possible to be moral without having religious affiliations."</p>

<p>-I never said that you had to be religious to be moral. I did moral/religious which means one or the other OR both.</p>

<p>"True, Bush is not a perfect president, but neither has he led us down the road to wrath and ruin." </p>

<p>-No-- Bush is actually a complete moron. He's made too many irreversible mistakes (eg. poor response to 9/11, Katrina, starting an unnecessary war with Iraq, etc.)</p>

54

<p>Difference between ethics and morality, eh? I see you haven't taken philosophy (a college-level one, at least). I will elaborate. :)</p>

<p>Ethics- Ethics usually refers to a code of conduct for a society or a group of people. This is highly variable and can change over time and with global location.</p>

<p>Morality- Morality is, unlike ethics, universal. This transcends laws, although it should not be used as an excuse to break them. </p>

<p>The difference is best shown using the standard examples.</p>

<p>Moral and Ethical: A teacher teaches his student math.
-This is moral because he does nothing to harm himself or others. It is ethical because he is behaving in the manner befitting a teacher and citizen.</p>

<p>Moral and Unethical: The teacher takes his shirt off in class.
-This is moral because again, the teacher has not harmed anyone. It is unethical because teachers (unlike lifeguards) are not allowed to do their job half-dressed.</p>

<p>Immoral and Ethical: The Nazi soldiers guarding the concentration camps
-This immoral because they were directly or indirectly harming the prisoners. They were ethical because they did their job- that is, to follow orders. (This example is the one people freak out about, btw)</p>

<p>Immoral and Unethical: A person robs/murders someone else.
-This is immoral because the action harms someone. It is unethical because society does not condone robbery and murder.</p>

<p>As far as the connection between religion and morality, I was merely referring to your atheism remark. :)</p>

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<p>= owned. :)</p>

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<p>you're telling me I HAVE to go to war?</p>

<p>i won't be subjecting myself to that any time soon. i would never EVER fight in a war. i dont want to die.</p>

<p>if I was born in Canada, and stayed in this country as a Canadian citizen, am I exempt from the "draft"?</p>

57

<p>It's sad to see so many Americans that take for granted the struggles that our ancestors have gone through which are the only reason they have a shot at going to college or can post on a college forum. </p>

<p>War isn't pretty. If I had a choice, I wouldn't want to put my life aside and fight. But are you telling me, that if we were attacked numerous times with nuclear weapons, and you lost loved ones and friends, that you wouldn't want to fight for your country?</p>

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<p>war is dangerous. Would you WANT to die Wharton? You try and sound so noble, but we're just being realistic. It's easy to sit on your high horse and judge us for being slightly afraid of war, but I hardly believe that you would be anxious to enlist should such an ugly situation ever come to fruition.</p>

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<p>You people suck its that simple my name is getmetocollege because I have an old name on here and lost the password and I felt like making a funny sarcastic name because everyone on here considers college a live or die experience. IT DOESNT MATTER IF YOU ARE A DEMOCRAT OR A REPUBLICAN HAVE THE DECENCY TO FIGHT FOR WHAT YOUR COUNTRY THINKS IS RIGHT. NO IM NOT SUGGESTING THIS BE THE TYPE OF GOVT WRITTEN ABOUT IN BOOKS LIKE 1984 AND BMW, but cmon you guys, at the end of the day is the US even close to that! WELL IS IT?! Im sick of people choosing parties and not thinking about the nation itself. I could give a damn about college if I was drafted. If the US wasnt around, well then we wouldnt be able to go to college, or a good one anyway. You guys are supposed to be smart right!? Well think about it then, instead of just siding with the party that fights for social rights lol.</p>

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<p>And rbase07, you are selfish! Only you can sit there on your computer in your home and talk of college and how much war would hurt you and take away from you probably going to some IVY LEAGUE SCHOOL. Why dont you get off YOUR high horse and take a second to remember what this country is all about....oh I guess you never took AP US HISTORY! Heres a refresher: you are able to think about college, we are all able to think about college bc this country allows us to-I know you want to fight for that.</p>