Unfortunately, in today’s world, a 3.0 is not only struggling but likely below 50% - at the common public school…far different than when I had a 2.8 and was at the 40th percentile.
While I don’t think you can necessarily equivalate and 4.0 with better ECs than a 3.0 - I mean, anyone can join a club, have a job, walk dogs, etc. - I do think that the 4.0 set seeks out these opportunities - and often for the wrong reasons - to look good vs. wanting to do something which is much better (i.e. having an interest or passion).
Average GPA in the country is a 3.0. And I suppose we need to define our terms as to what exactly we mean by struggling. It was suggested that a 3.0 student is “struggling” so much that they can’t participate in any ECs.
I call BS. 3.0 kids are AVERAGE. Getting Bs in school isn’t “struggling”.
The longer I’m on CC I realize that the CC community is not even close to being representative of the typical high school student. There’s so much bias and stereotyping based on experiences not at all indicative of most families.
There are so many parents who celebrate their 3.0 kid.
And FWIW we know some of those kids personally (friends of my kid). They’re super involved in school activities. They have jobs. They have social lives. They’re not “struggling” and shutting themselves in the house to work on getting As in school.
I agree with this. Not all parents are as “invested” in the process. That’s why 80% (it seems - I just made that up) of kids seem to go to the local public or state flagship - but you wouldn’t know it from this website.
So your point is fair - but I know today (in our top rated schools, a 3.0 is beneath the median. It shouldn’t be that way - but with so much grade inflation, it is.
I did not say this - I said it’s likely that the 4.0 has formal ECs, etc. for reasons that they’re trying to impress. The 3.0 isn’t likely applying to elite institutions but rather publics that are admitting based mostly on formula and or privates for the B student.
If you read the ECs of 80% of the CC - and I don’t want to doubt someone because I’m sure most are being honest - but they make it sound like they’ve accomplished more in a couple years than I have in a 30 year career
I’d hope that kids would do what they want - sports, job to make money, walk dogs…my daughter and wife worked helping Afghan Refugees via an organization and my daughter started a club at college this year to help resettle them…they will expand to help raise money for Ukranians.
She’s doing it for love…but so many do it for…the appearance.
Many kids also do things - individually or otherwise - that don’t necessarily turn into an EC where you can get credit. At one point my son was into airplane photography - he’s always got the airport or make us stop in other towns/cities and he was a plane spotter. We listed his instagram on his app (additional info) but it wasn’t an activity.
Kids should be who they genuinely are - and the GPA shouldn’t matter. Some have lower GPAs due to grades or lack of rigor. That doesn’t make them any worse as people and they’ll find homes in college if it’s for them.
But those kids likely aren’t chasing the internships at colleges or starting organizations saving the world, etc. like the others are.
Not that I believe them…but I guess there’s no reason to doubt anyone
This is a reply to the original message: My college aged kids are very average, decent GPA, decent–not top–test scores, very basic and common ECs. They did NOT apply to T20 schools. However, their basic ECs did result in higher merit offers…my son’s merit offer from a Jesuit school, with lower GPA and test scores, was higher than some friends, must have been due to his church volunteering and (possibly) Eagle Scout. My daughter had a very strong non-school EC in theater and film and her merit offer to where she ended up was also higher than would be expected with her stats. So, my non STEM, very average kids did benefit from holistic admissions, at least when it came to merit offers, even with their very common ECs.
Just a heads up- I have worked for TWO CEO’s who had their finger on the scale for anyone who made Eagle Scout. Entry level, experienced professional, senior/executive hiring. Some of us pushed back- there wasn’t a comparable designation for young women in scouting, so by definition this preference favors men over women- all things being equal.
But if Eagle is common where you live (and I know it’s an activity with pockets of strength in some areas, less so in others) you may not realize that it is very valuable in the working world (at least to some employers). I’ve seen 50 year old men describe with great enthusiasm their Eagle project during an interview!
The girl scout equivalent is the Gold Award. I have asked my kids to leave it on their resume- a 60 year old Secretary of State, Rex Tillerson, included his eagle on his cv always
I work in the public education field. Before the pandemic I went to a high school to audit the school’s student records. Rarely did I see a student with a GPA higher than 3.0. I wasn’t looking for it, but someone with a 3.5 GPA probably would have been in the top 3 of the class. I think there was one ACT score of 26, one of 21, one of 18 or 19, and the rest were in the low teens. It was heartbreaking. “But that’s not normal,” you say.
I just looked at a local private school where the tuition in the high school grades is over $25k. Here are the stats for the last three graduating classes.
Class of 2019
• 45 students, 3 National Merit Finalists, 2 National Hispanic Scholars
• Mean GPA 3.543/4.0
• Mean ACT of 26
• Average SAT 1270
• Average of 6.7 applications/student
Class of 2020
• 55 students
• Mean GPA 3.42/4.0
• Mean ACT of 25
• Average SAT 1186
• Average of 6.7 applications/student
Class of 2021
• 53 students, 3 National Merit Finalists
• Mean GPA 3.39/4.0
• Mean ACT of 25
• Average SAT of 1172
• Average of 8.9 applications/student
All of this to say, this is my effort to add in a touch more of what reality in my neck of the woods looks like. And yes, students with 3.0s are participating in extracurriculars.
Yes, this is how it is in the school where I work. Only about 1/3 go to college and when they do that means community college, beauty school etc. A kid getting accepted to a 4 year college is extremely rare. The graduating seniors have academic skills that are more like middle school. Many do not read fluently. Rarely do I meet an entering kindergartner who really knows the ABCs or how to count (they can sing the song, but get many of the letters wrong, they can count to 10 but if you hold up 3 fingers they can’t say how many that is.)
I think there is an assumption on CC that all kids have access to a decent quality education and that simply isn’t true. There is a chasm separating schools like you describe and our public HS (in MA) where 90%+ of kids go on to 4 year college and the average SAT is in the mid 1200’s. Frankly, I’m more worried about the huge differences in K-12 education in our country than whether or not a kid has to settle for their state flagship instead of a T20.
Yes, the school where I work is about 15 miles from the affluent high-achieving district where my own kids attend. It is like a different world. Such high levels of poverty and stress. Shootings at the gas station right across the street from the school. So much stress. There is a lovely library in the neighborhood, but not well attended. Transportation is a huge issue. And the parents are just frazzled. So much stress.
His experience was at a $25k small private high school. Our experience is in a wealthy suburban area. Not all kids with a B average or “lower” SAT scores is disadvantaged. Many of them are bright kids at challenging high schools.
No grade inflation at our semirural high school. My DDs weighted GPA was something like 3.8. She was top 5% in her graduating class. There were only two students with 4.0 unweighted….the val and sal.
Oh absolutely. When a school’s typical ACT score is in the low teens (as it was in the first school AustenNut described)this is a classic sign of a school in an impoverished area. But the situation is very different in $25,000 private schools (like the second school AustenNut described) or in publics located in wealthier districts. Wealthier schools will have ACTs and GPAs over a much broader range (some low, some NMF level.)
If this is referring to me, I just want to clarify that my child does not attend this private school. It is, however, a well-respected school in my area.
While I agree holistic reviews could inspire children to explore different interests through EC. I also feel sorry that it may become burden to some kids or set the false expectation.
Yeah I’m not sure there will ever be one “right” answer for how many or which ECs are the right ones. My kid has really solid ones with great essays… and is finding out they weren’t quite enough. I do like that colleges are looking for kids with passions. But ultimately we will never know what the magic formula really is.
Perhaps the answer is for kids to simply do what they are passionate about rather than thinking about every activity as checking some box in the college admission process.
