<p>the community has a lot more collective knowledge than teachers at a particular high school. Homeschoolers are not restricted to learning from their parents. All resources are available to them.</p>
<p>First of all I would like to know how many people you actually know that have been homeschooled? I am a homeschooling mom of two boys and we love it! My oldest son was in first grade when I took him out of school. I took him out because of some of the things he was learning and because of the older kids making fun of him. The principal, the teacher, and the bus driver all seemed unable to do anything about anything. The only reason the principal could give me for not taking my son out of school was that the school would loose their funding. It was his decision as well as mine to be homeschooled. He does not want to go back to school. Maby you should read a few articles on the subject as I did before you ridicule it.</p>
<p>I would have liked to be home schooled.</p>
<p>I took this test when I complained in second grade that it was friggin boring.</p>
<p>It said that I had mathematical knowledge past what I would learn in 4th grade.</p>
<p>I was a transfer student, so they wouldn't allow me to skip into a higher grade level for math.</p>
<p>So I pretty much just layed back and assimilated, now I'm just one grade level ahead as are one out of every ten kids in my school.</p>
<p>I think you are merely talking about maybe 2% of all the children that are homeschooled. It the future it is probably the best choice financially as well. A custom education- what could be better? My neighbors are homeschooled and they are the older one just got into Cornell this past spring. Sometimes children learn better in an environment that is familiar to them and it really is the parent's choice how to nurture their child.</p>
<p>being deprived of a high school experience!? You have got to be kidding! Public high school was the one year of my life that I hated school. And no I wasn't a dork, I hung out with all the "cool" kids, actually I hung out with almost everyone, and I was in varsity cross-country and softball, and a bunch of extra-curricular things. They're the only things that kept me relatively sane! You know how annoying it is to sit through a chemistry class with the teacher keeps going over and over the same things just cause half the class is too dense to get it?!
boy, ignorance these days.</p>
<p>This is quite the interesting thread... I am a now graduated HS student who was home schooled thoughout middle and parts of elementary school. It was a great experience and taught me ALOT but I will say that high school has taught me much more. Socially, at age 13, I felt like an adult. I was entering high school with academic abilities far exceeding those of my peers yet was socially 'different'. I didn't want to play the petty games, cliques, etc. I wanted to learn. What I learned was how to deal with the social aspects associated with education and how to use my unique abilities to get me ahead. To be student council president I couldn't take a test or just be smart, I had to gain the respect and admiration of my peers... that was a challenge like none I had experienced in home schooling. When I was home schooled I was a part of a ~200 family home school association that offered courses, sports, clubs, etc. Great, but nothing compared to the 'real deal'. </p>
<p>Alot of people ask if I'd ever home school my children and I normally say no. I didn't like being abnormal. As a kid, I didn't understand why I couldn't go to school and play with my friends all day. I don't think it's that big of a deal in elementary school but I wouldn't do it through middle and high school. IMO, you have to learn how to stick out and be great amongst the normal population... In middle school I traveled all around the world... Africa, South America, all over Europe... but send me to a normal summer camp?!? I wouldn't be able to function. I was so well rounded and so socially developed that I wasn't 'normal'. </p>
<p>...it's a neat idea, but the right idea for only a few kids. I'm not sure if I was one of them.</p>
<p>kgordon: "but seriously, as a parent, could you EVER give your child an F?"</p>
<p>I'm curious as to why you think it's always the parents doing the grading. I was homeschooled for high school, and my parents never graded anything. I took courses through my community college, and distance learning through my Board of Ed. How can you criticize something you clearly don't even understand?</p>
<p>i'm just curious. when you get homeschooled, do you have to pay a certain fee to whoever (hired teacher), or are your parents like supersmart or something.</p>
<p>never met any homeschooled kid and don't have a clue about how it works.</p>
<p>i guess if you've never been homeschooled, you'll be a little biased and it's the same thing otherwise. if you're homeschooled and have never been to a public school, you might be biased too because i attend a "public school" and i don't think "concentration camp" is the right term/synonym.</p>
<p>i guess certain things work for certain people. idk</p>
<p>Ultima - "homeschooling" is an okay term for young kids. It usually is the parents acting as teacher when the kids are elementary-age. However, it's a very misleading term for teens - it is nothing like normal school, and generally does not occur at home. Something like "custom-tailored education" or "self-directed education" would be more accurate. Homeschooled teens can and do take advantage of a wide range of learning activities, with minimal parent teaching. They may take CC or local university classes, distance learning courses, homeschooler classes, attend academic summer programs, attend continuing education activities with working adults, self-study, work with tutors or mentors, intern at a job, travel, whatever they can think of. There's a great book written about some of the options called The Teenage Liberation Handbook by Grace Llewellyn.</p>
<p>Though Kgordon was a bit direct and is not that eloquent in making the point, he/she brings up a valid idea: that homeschooled children MAY not receive all the education they could.</p>
<p>I am a college professor and I have a son who attends public school. The difference I see is that public schooled (or private school, for that matter) children receive two types of education: academic and "real life." There is no doubt that many home-schooled students come out academically prepared, however, in my experience, they are much less prepared to deal with diversity and adversity as their publicly schooled peers.</p>
<p>My son has occasionally had minor run-ins with bullies and has had a few unpleasant experiences, but that too is education. I like to tell my college students that half of everything they will learn will occur OUTSIDE the classroom. Learning to deal with people that are not like you and who do not agree with you is part of education, and more importantly, the key to a stable democracy.</p>
<p>Secondly, the biggest loser is society. If more students were home-schooled, then the social cohesiveness that public schools have provided for the last 100 years would begin to erode. This is analogous to the problem we now have with the U.S. military. Exceedingly few wealthy, Republicans serve or have served in the military (go look at the Senate or House members' records--Democrats overwhelmingly have military records whereas very few Republicans do; but Republicans are making military policy--go figure).</p>
<p>In sum, home-schooling may produce smart kids but will ultimately degrade our society.</p>
<p>Cydonian Imperative,</p>
<p>I read your comments with great interest. My eldest daughter attended private school for one year before beginning to homeschool.</p>
<p>You stated and I quote : "The difference I see is that public schooled (or private school, for that matter) children receive two types of education: academic and "real life." There is no doubt that many home-schooled students come out academically prepared, however, in my experience, they are much less prepared to deal with diversity and adversity as their publicly schooled peers."</p>
<p>One of the benefits of homeschooling (11 years now) is that the children do receive two types of education: academic and "real life". Furthermore, they know how to interact with adults because they have done it all their lives. I don't find homeschooled children intimidated by adults. How wonderful it is for a child of 9 to be able to converse with a college professor about a subject of mutual interest and not feel intimidated. I don't see what occurring in public school. How wonderful to see a young teen have a tremendous passion for writing and be able to turn that passion into a best selling novel? </p>
<p>I realize that is not the case with every homeschooled child. Allow me to cite another example. I homeschool my four children. Three would be termed "high ly gifted" and one has a diagnosed learning disability and special needs. We worked with the school system for our special needs child as she received the speech and language therapy that she needed. Their comments to me were that it was fortunate that she was able to be homeschooled. There is no way in the world that she would have been able to tolerate the antics of school bullying. How fortunate it is that I can guide her education, get her accepted into the Johns Hopkins Center for Talented Youth distance education program when the school system would not have had the time to further her strengths. </p>
<p>You also stated "
My son has occasionally had minor run-ins with bullies and has had a few unpleasant experiences, but that too is education. I like to tell my college students that half of everything they will learn will occur OUTSIDE the classroom. Learning to deal with people that are not like you and who do not agree with you is part of education, and more importantly, the key to a stable democracy."</p>
<p>That is why most homeschooled children are involved in a myriad of outside activities so that they can learn to deal with people that ARE NOT like them. They learn tolerance and compassion for others. They interact with people of various ethnic backgrounds and religious beliefs. Through these differences, they learn how to deal with people in the real world.</p>
<p>Furthermore, in the "real" world you don't just associate with people who are your age, give or take a year. Imagine how unstable this democracy would be if we only interacted with people our age.</p>
<p>Thank goodness homeschooling affords our children the opportunity to interact with all kinds of people and all kinds of minds.</p>
<p>Cydonian Imperative said:
[QUOTE]
In sum, home-schooling may produce smart kids but will ultimately degrade our society.
[/QUOTE]
The thing is, many of us who allow our children to homeschool feel that our society is already degraded in regard to the state of affairs in our schools. We choose to try something different with our children in response to their real and immediate needs. Would it be best if everyone homeschooled? Maybe not. It might be best if our schools were structured differently and met the needs of more students. </p>
<p>Our school system was never designed to promote the social cohesiveness you refer to, and what cohesiveness exists is fragile indeed. It is not fragile because a few of us have pulled our kids out of school. It is fragile because the structure of the school is inhumane and shows lack of respect for young people and their social and education needs. </p>
<p>I have a hard time seeing how putting masses of same age students together every day in oppressive conditions could possibly promote real social cohesiveness. In real life we rarely work in such large groups, and we work with people of all different ages. </p>
<p>My homeschooled daughter has also occasionally had minor run-ins with bullies and has had a few unpleasant experiences, but that too was part of her education. You don't have to go to school for that. But what about the education of the bullies? What do they learn by being locked into an isolated same-age culture apart from the mitigating effects of more diversity? To say my child should go to school in order to face that sort of artificial situation seems absurd to me. It is equally absurd to think that she should be held responsible for fixing it by her presence there.</p>
<p>My daughter has contributed a great deal to the social cohesiveness of our community, and she will continue to be an asset in any community she finds herself in. The schools will continue to muddle through and provide adequate education for some students because of the heroic efforts of dedicated staff. However, massive changes are needed before they will be able to provide healthy educational and social environments for all or even most students.</p>
<p>I find it interesting that when a homeschooled child is viewed as socially deficient the blame is placed on their educational situation. However, the same cause and effect relationship is not generally attributed when traditionally-schooled children exhibit inadequate social skills. There was a girl at my daughters college orientation who had attended a large public high school and was rather immature. If she had been homeschooled, her behavior would have been linked by many to the fact that she hadnt attended a traditional school. Instead, she was viewed as an individual.</p>
<p>Personally, I first became interested in homeschooling after spending time with students who were homeschooled. They were so much more mature socially than other children I had contact with that I began to explore homeschooling for my own children. In contrast, the average public school student is not a model of what I would like for my children to be, and yet public schooling is widely viewed to be the most effective way to socialize children.</p>
<p>I never said that public schools were "designed" to provide social cohesiveness, I said that they "provided" it. Again, a military analogy is instructive.</p>
<p>Our military (like all militaries) was never designed to create social cohesiveness, but that is what occurred during the period of the draft (the draft fell out of public favor largely due to Vietnam, not because of any inherent problems with the process). Though some very wealthy, like President Bush, were able to buy their way out or into cushy assignment, the vast majority of American men were liable for the same service to the country, which provided a shared sense of responsibility and understanding.</p>
<p>Public schools have evolved to do the very same thing within the educational process. To abandon public education is to erode what we political scientists call "civil society," and a weak civil society will always bring down a democracy (not that I don't believe that the past four years have already started that process, but that's a different subject).</p>
<p>I am a firm believer in the power and possibility of the state. I have traveled to over 40 countries, I have lived abroad in Europe and Latin America for extended periods, and I speak fluent Spanish and passable Portuguese. My experience and education has shown me that when citizens "give up" on a government's responsibility to provide social goods -- education, welfare, and security -- the country's future is in peril.</p>
<p>So, as you see, the question of homeschooling is more than a simple "individual rights" question but gets to the heart of the nature of our society and the type of society we wish to live in. Have you ever wondered why the European Union has surpassed the United States as the world's economic leader? One important reason is the strong state in Europe and its guiding role in social and economic growth.</p>
<p>Cydonian, I'm inclined to agree with nearly all of what you said. I too have traveled extensively, lived abroad, and am fluent in another language. I too am a believer in the power and possibility of the state and have a deep appreciation for the accomplishments of civil society. I carry a strong sense of responsibility for its evolution.</p>
<p>As far as your military analogy goes, it seems that you are implying a connection between wealthy people who buy their way out of service and homeschoolers. Most homeschoolers are not wealthy and manage to homeschool because of lifestyle choices most families are unwilling to make. If you want to pursue the military analogy, homeschoolers have much more in common with draft protesters than with the economic elite.</p>
<p>I agree that the military should be a shared responsibility, to the point where I believe, in a draft, women should be called up as well as men. But then I would also have deep respect and appreciation for any draftees who felt they needed to leave the country or otherwise protest an illegal or unjust war.</p>
<p>Social cohesiveness can evolve in many different places in many different ways, both healthy and unhealthy. As melodramatic as bonifide20's earlier reference to "state mandated indoctrination concentration camps" seems, that really is the way many students experience their time in school. You find social cohesiveness evolving in prisons, but does that mean I want my child to land in jail? Public school is a jail sentence for many, and as a responisble parent, I needed to find a healthier way to help my daughter educate herself.</p>
<p>The social cohesiveness in our school systems tends to reduce things to a common denominator. Children who are different are forced to conform or suffer mercilessly. We need the gifted kids who are going crazy on the fringes. We need their different points of view, and we need their healthy minds applied to the problems our world is facing. We need the middle of the road average people to learn from those with different points of view, instead of forcing the odd ones to conform.</p>
<p>Our public school system should support our civil society, but if it were doing that job effectively, producing strong civic minded citizens, who are smart about media manipulation, then I believe the last five years would have looked very different.</p>
<p>I have not abandoned public education. When my daughter leaves for college this year, I'll return to my local school and see what I can do to help out. Perhaps one day, we'll have a school system more like the European model. I'm willing to work for that, but I was not willing to sacrifice my daughter's education in the mean time.</p>
<p>I agree that our country's future is in peril. We all need to do the best we can, from where we are right now, with whatever means we have, to support the forces of reason and civil responsibility.</p>
<p>nan said this: "I have a hard time seeing how putting masses of same age students together every day in oppressive conditions could possibly promote real social cohesiveness. In real life we rarely work in such large groups, and we work with people of all different ages."</p>
<p>I believe that putting "masses of same age students together" is not wrong especially when these students are very young. And it's not like it's for 24/7. it's only acouple hours a day for 5 days!!!.
I'm imagining what you said as putting a 4 year old with an 18 and 32 year old everyday. now compare this with putting the little child with kids his own age. which is more sensible?. of course in "real life" (if you mean outside of school), there is always saturday, sunday, and the rest of the day, everyday after school for the kids to be with "adults/parents/family". But if you were referring to their later stages in life then there's still no problem because as i said earlier, a 4 year old or even a teen would have more problems fitting in with students with hugh age differences than adults like 32 fitting with people of hugh age difference like 40 or 50 that makes more sense.
it's not even like you're learning in the same room with 2000 students. </p>
<p>how could being with your friends for about 6 hours each day be "opressing". i attend a public school and i love it. trust me! "it's not a "consentration camp" as you think it is.</p>
<p>i don't have a bad feeling about homeschooling. but i think there are advantages and disadvantages to it and the same thing applies to public/private schools. it works for some and doesn't work for others.</p>
<p>Ultima,</p>
<p>I believe nan was reacting to the statements made by a previous poster that kids can not grow up well-adjusted unless they go to school to be "socialized," and that somehow being in school all day with those your own age is more like the "real world" than a homeschooler's life which may actually be out IN the "real world" for hours a day. She was showing that those stereotypes are just not accurate.</p>
<p>I agree with you that all different forms of schooling have advantages and disadvantages. As a matter of fact, my two sons, while of high school age, chose to attend PS part-time. Thus they could take advantage of some of the benefits of public school--science lab facilities, time with peers, band participation, etc.--while still retaining some of the benefits of homeschooling--working at your own pace, individualized curriculum, more personal attention, etc. One is now a college graduate, the other an incoming college freshman. Both did quite well after homeschooling all their lives and were able to fit in well in the high school classes they chose to take.</p>
<p>I'm glad you are happy with your schooling situation. My sons were quite happy with theirs. And really, that is all homeschoolers want: for each family/individual to be able to chose the schooling situation that works best for them.</p>
<p>Ultima, I think it's great that you've had good high school experience. I did't say nobody could, nor did I say that schools are concentration camps. I just said that many students experience schools that way, and in fact they do. You didn't experience it that way and that's great, but it doesn't change what is happening to many students who aren't like you. </p>
<p>Having worked in a high school I have seen first hand what happens to many extremely talented peole who just happen to be different. My point is that we as a society need to respect those people and their educational needs. </p>
<p>I'm not even saying that all homeschoolers fit into that category. It was just one point against Cydonian's argument that allowing students the choice of homeschooling is to contribute to the breakdown of civil society.</p>
<p>Nan,</p>
<p>You base your assessment on your own employment in one single high school. However, empirical research is clear that homeschooling is positively correlated to conservative stances (as conservatives go in the USA). However, based on voter registration (not elections; Americans are notoriously the worst voters in terms of percentages in the developed world), the majority of people ARE NOT Republican or conservative, but either moderate or liberal (again, these are empirical facts, not my personal politics, which are more akin to European Social Democrat than just "Democrat").</p>
<p>You're right that some decision-making skills are not learned among peers but many are. To reiterate, I am a college professor and in my many years teaching I have had a number of home-schooled students (usually one or two per semester). While a minority (perhaps 30%) are very well adjusted, bright, and just as "ready for the real world" as their public school counterparts, the majority are not. They are either not up to the task of interaction with those who are vastly different than they are or, in a small number (maybe 10%), are borderline misanthropes.</p>
<p>According to my research, homeschooling is very much a U.S. phenomenon. In almost every other developed country, public schooling is a sign of progress. I agree that there are some problems in SOME schools (perfection would be utopic, and I am not). However, I will not throw out the baby with the bathwater. The problems that manifest themselves in public schools are largely not the product of the schools themselves but of greater society.</p>
<p>My sister, who teaches elementary school in Georgia, has frequently encountered parents whose behavior, maturity level, and educational attainment are not much better than their problematic children. These systemic problems will not be solved by people pulling their children out of public schools. Would we have been able to address the grave injustice of racial segregation in the 1950s throught today if we had all just buried our heads in the sand?</p>
<p>The solution is not withdrawal but confronting the problems head on and wide-eyed with a steely, resolute determination that we will make things better. </p>
<p>However, my soap box now packed away, I realize that making a quorum of our society aware of the real root causes of the problems in today's world will be problematic, given that the Bush regime has largely adopted Herman Goering's (the Nazi's propaganidist) philosophy: "All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."</p>
<p>I grieve for what will remain of US society that will be left after 2008. My wife and I are considering retirement in Canada.</p>
<p>Cydonian, we based the decision to allow our daughter to homeschool on schools that were available to us. If we were in a different district, we might have decided otherwise. </p>
<p>When looking at your numbers regarding well adjusted homeschoolers and those who are not, I think it's important to realize that the homeschooling population includes a higher proportion of students with pre-existing problems. Included are students who have attended school, but quit because it didn't work out for various reasons. For example, when students are expelled because of behavior problems, they often join the ranks of the homeschooled. Also, marginal students often opt for some form of homeschooling rather than accepting the stigma of dropping out. Not only does that skew the numbers, but I wonder how many of the misanthropes you describe wouldn't even have made it to college if they hadn't had the option of homeschooling.</p>
<p>I share your concern for the future of our public school system. It's vital. However, I still maintain that the increased prevalence of homeschooling in this country is due to a failure of the school system, and is not the cause of that failure. People with fanatical beliefs take advantage of the situation, which is nothing new or surprising, but shouldn't be mistaken for the cause of the problem.</p>
<p>It definitely upsets me when people homeschool their children in order to restrict them to a certain agenda, whether it's ultra-conservative, or ultra-flaky-alternative. It's a problem, and I don't know the solution. However, I don't think banning homeschooling is the answer. There are people doing a good job of it in situations where the alternatives are not acceptable. Those students should maintain the right to homeschool.</p>
<p>I'm wondering to what extent things will change on campus as admissions officers gain more experience assessing homeschooled students. I also wonder to what extent clarity in that process will effect homeschool curricula.</p>
<p>That's a good and appropriate summarization of Goering's philosophy. It's the same old question about personal integrity and responsibility in the face of fear. I'd sure like to hear more about this country being the home of the brave, instead of hearing so much about what we're supposed to fear.</p>
<p>The similarities between the current state of affairs in this country and that in Nazi Germany are indeed startling, but the differences are also interesting. In particular, I'm wondering about the whole idea of fleeing the country. In Nazi Germany it made sense to get out after a certain point. The problems were global then, but they are global now in a way that makes fleeing a very different matter.</p>
<p>Things are different in some other ways too. Germany didn't have our long tradition of democracy. Also, the flow of information is faster and more open now. As you said, making a quorum of our society aware of the causes of the problems in today's world will certainly be problematic, but it's not over yet. The pieces are there for us to do something different, and I believe the key to doing so lies in what we do about the prevailing atmosphere of cynicism.</p>
<p>While I deeply respect your sentiments, I think that it's too soon to grieve for what will remain of US society after 2008. Our social structures are being tested to the limit, but what are we saying to our children entering college when we talk about leaving? Is that the best we have to offer them?</p>