<p>Our feelings won't be hurt so please be honest and realistic. Our daughter has been told by her guidance counselors that although her math SAT score looks out-of-the-norm compared to her other test scores, she is still a very strong candidate for her top-choice schools. Dartmouth, Yale, Tufts and Northwestern in that order. Here are her test scores - we recognize that most are very high but how bad does the math look? Honestly, would a school truly put her in the "no pile" simply based on the math score? (and really, if they did, it tells us that it wouldn't be the right school for her....). Her "background story" is strong and her extracurriculars are authentic to her.</p>
<p>SAT CR - 790; Writing 770; Math 680
SAT Subject Tests - Engl Lit 800; Spanish 780 (hasn't had AP Engl Lit either, too funny)
AP English - 5; AP Spanish - 5; AP Env Sci - 5; AP Chem - 3
National Merit Commended Scholar </p>
<p>We have been asked why our daughter didn't study math hard and take the SAT again (her SATs were taken in Jan and March of her junior year). But again, this choice is authentic to her -- she takes the balancing act of her activities seriously, and she did not want to take the SAT at the same time as any of her other tests (AP, Subj Test) PLUS she took 3 SAT Practice tests plus the PSAT and always got either 670 or 680.... never rose above that ... she always left 3-4 questions unanswered and missed usually 1.</p>
<p>Does she have a chance at her four top schools even though the 680 math for those schools is around the 25th percentile for their admits?</p>
<p>As long as she doesn’t intend on pursuing a career in cosmology, I’d say she has a shot. She’s obviously very gifted in English, and her math score isn’t horrible, so it will probably depend on other factors like ECs, essays, and the like.</p>
<p>The other question I would have is, how successful are your guidance counselors at getting people into those schools? If they have extensive experience at working with those schools, I’d say they know what they’re talking about because they routinely work with those admissions officers. They’ll have personal relationships with them, know what they’re looking for, will be able to introduce and advocate for your daughter, etc. This is often overlooked by a great number of people, including many on CC. It’s not just about you and your scores, but how it’s presented and who can make the case behind the scenes.</p>
<p>If they don’t have a lot of success, then they may be handing you a line, but I don’t think so. There’s still a very good chance. Not every poet needs to know differential equations.</p>
<p>I hope you are not letting your daughter know how disappointed you are in her for getting an excellent Math SAT score. A 680 is in the 90th percentile.</p>
<p>Who asked you why she didn’t study hard? And what did that person get on their Math SAT?</p>
<p>Her 2240 composite score is in the 99th percentile. Don’t be so ridiculous.</p>
<p>The OP is correct that the math score is low for Dartmouth where it’s at the 25%ile (and Yale and NU are probably worse). Tufts doesn’t publish its CDS but I would imagine it’s similar. That being said there is a reason these schools use a holistic evaluation. It really will depend on the other info and the board’s evaluation of that data.</p>
<p>SAT Math at 680 is around the 25% for most top schools disregarding whatever percentile it is on the curve. As you know only top few percent of students usually ended up going to those schools anyway. So a 90 percentile is likely not good enough. From the number of practice tests, it seems she is not really eager to improve that score. It is her choice to prioritize her time and she need to accept the outcome as well. It is not too bad if she is not applying to engineering in those top schools. A more balanced section scores would make her more competitive. SAT 2240 is a good composite score, but not all SAT 2240 are treated the same way. In general, you want to have 700+ in each section to be more competitive. Also, aim at 1500+ in CR+M for top schools. Anyway, for schools that require SAT2, she got great scores that may help her overcome her relative weakness in one section score.</p>
<p>Sure, the Math score is in the 25% range for top schools but the CR is in the 75%+ range. It’s a good balance. Not everyone is equal in every subject and gets 740 across the board.</p>
<p>What about a kid that got 800 in Math and 690 in CR and wanted to major in engineering? Wouldn’t they be a perfect candidate for that as opposed to a kid who got 740 in both?</p>
<p>2240 is good enough for any school. Now it’s up to admissions to decide if this student has other things to offer and it seems to me like she does, if she can get past everyone criticizing her for “only” getting a 680 in Math.</p>
<p>I think a score below 700 in math is decidedly unhelpful, but not fatal. I’d guess that she will probably get past the initial review and get as far as committee, where the admissions officers wrangle and debate over who gets the thin envelope and who gets the thick one. What happens there is just about impossible to predict.</p>
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<p>I have to wonder, though, what made her guidance counselors say such a thing. I’d never tell a teenager that she’s “a very strong candidate” for a college or university as selective as those, even if her math score were 100 points higher. All four of those institutions deny far more “very strong candidates” than they admit.</p>
<p>According to the College Board web site, only 18,442 scored 2240 or higher out of 1,660,047 SAT test takers last year. When colleges say they could admit an entire freshman class of kids with perfect SAT scores, it’s simply not true. Only 494 students scored a 2400 last year.</p>
<p>In a single sitting, right? Since almost all colleges and universities superscore, and since teenagers take the SAT several times, there are a lot more than 500 applicants with scores of 2400. “An entire freshman class of kids with perfect SAT scores” may be hyperbole, but I don’t believe a 2400 is as rare as you’re making it out to be. Much less so, a 2300 or a 2240.</p>
<p>I suppose that’s a single setting but regardless, the top 20 schools admit approximately 50,000 freshmen. Surely this candidate is qualified to be among them.</p>
<p>Thank you, all. And MaynardGKrebs, you are correct - we have only continued to tell her we are proud of her. And we are genuinely proud of her. Do we privately wish that she could have worked super hard and broken the 700 “plane” to make it easier. Yes. But at what cost? It would have taken hours and hours of studying and practice test after practice test. And that would have meant less studying for her regular classes (she has an unweighted 4.0 and I think it is more important than a stupid 700 in math SAT personally)). She has worked hard at math, and has earned As in honors math and is an A student in AP Calculus B-C. But standardized tests require quickness, and quickness in math is not something she is good at. In the end, I guess there is no right answer. She is authentic to who she is and what she does – and there will be a school that she applies to that will see that, and she will be happy there. She has 11 schools on her list and they range from Dartmouth to Macalester and Mt. Holyoke. And the good news is that she will be happy at ANY of them. As parents, can we ask for anything else? MaynardGKrebs – it was an interviewer at an unnamed school that mentioned that her math SAT score looked like an “outlier” against her other schools and he would recommend studying really hard and taking the SAT one more time. His advice, I think, is fine – it just wasn’t the right thing for our daughter.</p>
<p>Every book I read, the best school is the one the student fits in perfectly and loves it. It is usually not one of the top schools. There are plenty of horrible stories from students getting into top schools (like the highest suicide rate from U Chicago). I think to choose a school one would enjoy studying there is most critical.</p>
<p>“but I don’t believe a 2400 is as rare as you’re making it out to be.”</p>
<p>It’s incredibly rare. And I’m not making it out to be anything. It’s from the College Board web site. Please show me something that says thousands of kids have 2400s.</p>
<p>Maynard - Roughly 500 applicants scored 2400 in a single sitting. I would assume that somewhere around three times this many students have a super-score of 2400, since unlimited numbers of tries are possible. This results in roughly 2,000 perfect SAT scorers per application year.</p>
<p>In addition, there are likely a similar number of perfect ACT score applicants. Although few universities super-score the ACT, a student could have one or two lower sub scores but still maintain a “perfect” 36, resulting in an effect similar to a superscore. Also, the number of students taking the ACT is roughly equal to the number of students taking the SAT, and they use a similar bell curve for scoring both tests, thus we can assume that the number of perfect scorers is close to equal.</p>
<p>There are very few students who take the ACT if they have a perfect score on the SAT, and vice versa, so our rough approximation of 4,000 unique perfect score applicants would be enough to fill an entire class at most “top-20” universities, even if only half or fewer apply to any given school.</p>
<p>A 680 on math will not kill her chances. Even if she’s doing engineering or something math-heavy, if she shows true passion in that area, a 680 won’t be really bad - like oh we’ll reject her because she has a 680. That never happens. She’ll be fine.</p>
<p>“Maynard - Roughly 500 applicants scored 2400 in a single sitting. I would assume that somewhere around three times this many students have a super-score of 2400, since unlimited numbers of tries are possible. This results in roughly 2,000 perfect SAT scorers per application year.”</p>
<p>No way there are 2,000 perfect SAT scores each year. For starters, 3 times 500 is 1500, not 2000. Second, you seem to think that kids can just keep taking the SAT and eventually they will get a 2400, which is ridiculous. And the people that are capable of getting a 2400 may have scored, say, a 2360 on one try so there’s really no reason to take it again. Some may but not many. And someone who got < 2200 is not likely to ever improve to a 2400 super-score.</p>
<p>I would bet there are less than 1000 2400 super-scores/year, more likely 700-800, if that.</p>
<p>He is saying superscore 2400 to be around 3 times of single sitting 2400. So 500 + 1500 = 2000. I don’t see a calculation error but this is speculation anyway. Whatever number you said is just as rough estimate as the other one unless one can really proof it with stat.</p>
<p>I think your daughter remains a strong candidate for top colleges, although like others say these are tough schools so no guarantees (you seem well aware of that).</p>
<p>The thing is, the scores are not that out of whack. It’s not unusual to have a 100 point difference between the highest and lowest especially if the student is very gifted in one area. Colleges, including the elite ones, are not looking for perfection, they are looking for students who challenge themselves and show achievements in some area, but certainly not all areas. Your daughter has taken AP calc, so she hadn’t shied away from math. Now the question is, are they looking for a student like your daughter?</p>
<p>I don’t mean stat-wise. I mean, like you say, who she is authentic to herself. It sounds like you have more of a grip on things than most parents.</p>