Honors classes vs Music?

College Majors Music Major
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<p>I fully support political protests on this topic as well, and I’m sure we’d all come to your school board meetings with you if we could! I’m guessing many of us have been to our own. Also, yes, Honors & APs can be important for staying interested in academics, and for best preparing for college work. However, often students aren’t really interested in the classes, so they are only for making it “look like” they took the most challenging courses available. In California for ex, the top UC schools know what is available at every public high school, and expect top students to take as many tough classes as they can, within their school’s circumstances. This doesn’t work well for every kid though, and it’s not quite the same for music admissions. Though students must be admitted to the universities first, the bar is often lower for the university than it is for the music school within it, and for my son admissions seemed to defer to the music school, as long the minimum university requirements were met. i.e., it wasn’t too hard for him to be admitted with basically minimum qualifications (more or less the same as the high school graduation standards, with extra language & a little more math & science, plus an average GPA & a very good SAT score - and I think the last two could have been reversed & it would have come out much the same) to a handful of large public universities (with good music schools), and one small private one, but then he had to pass the music auditions. The schools knew, I think, that the music bar was the really important piece. (Stand-alone conservatories would have been no issue as far as the academics, I believe, and as you’ve been told.) I think his resume was probably helpful as well, with a whole lot of things going on outside of school. That was certainly my hope when he dropped lab science as a junior (shocking his counselor), and stuck with his 4 bands, his after school comp program, and serious piano. He did manage to take one Honors class & two APs (so actually three AP tests). I figured there are only so many hours in the day. Perhaps we let him off easy, but now, honestly, even the APs he did are not taking care of any GE requirements (he just missed the bar for English, and the others do nothing under a new system), so they’re just general credits. Ah well.</p>

<p>I’m really not a fan of online classes, though here & there if they’re really good, maybe. What about community college classes, perhaps in summer in a year or two? Or a Summer Session at a 4-year school near you. They can have very short sessions & leave room for camp & etc. We have a friend whose daughter is doing that now, not for music, but just to get things done as she wants to graduate early.</p>

<p>I firmly suggest that your daughter pick at least one music group to be part of during the school day no matter what. It simply makes a musician’s school life livable, and makes it possible to form friendships with like-minded kids that are invaluable in the high school experience. Then find as much music as possible outside of school, and leave it at that. </p>

<p>Good luck with the administration!</p>

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<p>So, what my daughter and I didn’t realize was that when the Syracuse Symphony Orchestra declared bankruptcy, and dropped their youth (grades 9-12) orchestra, Syracuse University picked up the slack. She was able to get an audition, get in, and they start rehearsals Sept. 9th!</p>

<p>Still, she wasn’t happy with not being able to be in the school Wind Ensemble. She has decided to take Regents (not honors) courses and take the Wind Ensemble. We went back and forth so many times, I left it up to her. The Regents and honors kids take the same final exams, so if she scores well on her finals she can move herself up to 10th grade honors next year if she chooses, but it’s obvious she will have the same conflicts all four years. :frowning: She can still take AP courses in the future.</p>

<p>My daughter was also signed up for Chorus, but decided to take a Leadership course instead. I think this will be good for her, it promotes leadership, responsibility, discipline and exposes the students to every EC the school offers and community service opportunities. These students basically become the student leaders in her school, in clubs and in sports.</p>

<p>Now another question-- is it crucial she take chorus before Music Theory next year and later AP Music Theory? She knows the AP credit will most likely not transfer, but wants to take as much Theory as possible in HS. She was in Chorus three years in JR High and made all-county each time. Is more chorus or chamber singers crucial for Theory and/or college with an instrumental music major (Ed or Performance)? And she has never taken Piano, should she start soon?</p>

<p>When I asked her if she could picture majoring in something other then Music, she said “No way!” And then said if she later decided on something else, even if she had to start at a community college because she didn’t take honors, that would be ok. Her Guidance Counselor has already agreed to write a letter to colleges she applies to explaining her situation. </p>

<p>Last but not least–maybe wishful thinking because she’s overloaded with music, school and sports, but does playing in an outside orchestra count as community service hours? You don’t get paid, they practice a lot and travel the area performing for different groups. Just wondering. It’s more demanding then what a lot of other kids do in the name of “community service”!</p>

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<p>Thanks for the update. It’s interesting to see how conflicts are resolved.</p>

<p>It’s good that your daughter got into an outside orchestra. That’s important. As I wrote before, I don’t think taking honors vs. other classes makes much difference. </p>

<p>Regarding music theory, I don’t believe chorus is a necessary prerequisite, although it is certainly helpful. My daughter hasn’t been in chorus since 6th grade due to scheduling. Taking theory is a good idea, as is piano if she wants to. </p>

<p>Someone else can address your question about community service hours. My daughter’s school doesn’t require them. The national honor society does require them, but my daughter declined that invitation to leave more time for practicing. In looking for music schools, I haven’t come across any schools that have indicated that community service hours or other ECs are important. There probably are some, but I just don’t know about them.</p>

<p>Keep in the mind though that your daughter needs to reserve time to practice and to make oboe reeds. The reed making process is a time consuming one.</p>

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<p>Redeye41,</p>

<p>I am a parent of a syracuse youth orchestra member also. He is the timpanist and a senior this year. We have been through a lot of what you are dealing with. I will be at the first rehearsal if you want a real person as a sounding board. My wife and I have been through it all with our school. My name is Jim and I will be wearing a blue ball hat with the word “Zildjian” on the front or a black ball hat with “Percussive Arts Society” on the front. Come up and introduce yourself Sept. 9th. </p>

<p>Jim</p>

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<p>Redeye, your daughter sounds impressively mature, congratulations! And the SU orchestra is a great new addition for her life I’m sure.</p>

<p>I wouldn’t think chorus would be essential for theory (she is involved with music in other ways), but piano is very important for theory. My daughter is not a proficient pianist and only plays enough for theory class or enough to help with composition. But I am so glad that she took piano lessons for the last two years of high school. It can help to find a piano teacher who is geared to also teaching theory with piano skills.</p>

<p>Good luck to her. It sounds like an exciting year and she has done a great job balancing things, hard for any of us at any age to do.</p>

<p>p.s. still hope her school makes some changes to these scheduling problems!</p>

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<p>Redeye, I think you and your daughter have made the right decision. She certainly will not have to go to community college, if she changes her mind about majoring in music, just because she didn’t take Honors classes. And since it sounds like your HS band program is top-notch, she will be SO glad she’s in the Wind Ensemble. Especially if she ends up doing Music Ed, she will really appreciate what she gets out of that musically. Orchestral and band literature is so different, and so for her to be exposed to high quality literature in both areas is important, in case she does decide later that she wants to teach K-12 band.</p>

<p>Also, I cannot reiterate enough how helpful it would be for her to begin piano lessons NOW. It is much more important than her taking choir…or theory, as she will probably get a lot of theory from her piano lessons. I was SO thankful I was proficient in piano when I was a music major - it made college theory much easier. I had many other music major friends who really wished their parents had forced them to take piano lessons. </p>

<p>Oh, and I wouldn’t worry at all about taking theory before chorus - she will probably know more theory through band than through chorus. In fact, some choral teachers don’t even teach their students how to read music. But the best way to learn theory? Piano lessons, hands down!</p>

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<p>Thanks Jim! </p>

<p>Has your son been in the Orchestra before? Did he enjoy the experience?</p>

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<p>saxlady- Thanks for the reassurance and advice about Piano. What level of proficiency on Piano is a college music student expected to attain?</p>

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<p>Thanks woodwinds, you’re always so helpful!</p>

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<p>compmom-- Calling her “impressively mature” will go straight to her head! I appreciate all of your great advice. I’m on the school about scheduling conflicts. We’ve always had excellent Art and Music programs, and I don’t want to see kids dropping these courses because they want to be in honors. I’m worried it will not only weaken the programs, but in hard economic times justify cutting them because of lower enrollment. The Principal has been very nice and wants to meet next week about some changes that seem to have been made to how students will be ranked so they are not “punished” for taking Music and Art programs which aren’t weighted in ranking. I’ve heard good things about him. We’ll see what happens and proceed from there!</p>

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<p>This will be my son’s 4th year in Syracuse youth orchestra. He loves it. Dr. T is fantastic. He also loves Mrs. B who conducts the younger kids in string orchestra. It’s what he lives for each week as our music program in our school is horrible.</p>

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<p>I will get on the bandwagon in favor of piano lessons. Son says he learned most of his basic music theory very early on with his piano lessons. I have heard him advise others to take piano to learn theory. He has his music theory placement exams on Monday, hopefully this is the payoff!</p>

<p>Son did not count youth orchestra as community service. However, I think if the orchestra plays as part of a community service - at a nursing home, or a benfit concert for example, then those performances could count.</p>

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<p>Regarding community service, my daughter wouldn’t count a youth orchestra. However, she can count numerous performances at retirement homes, fundraising and other charity events where her wind quartet performed, and free performances at art shows, churches (not ours) and community theaters.</p>

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<p>redeye41, the level of piano expertise depends on the program and the school. Some music students can’t play a lick of piano, and some applied music instructors, particularly for music performance majors, actually discourage their students from learning instruments other than their primary instrument as they feel that it takes time away from their primary instrument.</p>

<p>Unless they are a piano performance student, at my sons college they aren’t expected to have any piano skills when they first enter college. But it is VERY helpful if they can play, and the higher the level the better. When my son first entered college, he sight read piano at probably only a grade two level and performed practiced pieces at grade six or so. After a year of college level music theory (no piano classes), he now sight reads piano at grade four or five (still performing practiced grade six or seven music).</p>

<p>Music education, and voice students are the ones that are most likely to be expected to learn to play piano. My son’s music ed curriculum (instrumental) requires just two semesters of group piano classes, but if he was a music ed choral student he would have to take more and would be expected to play at a higher level. If my son was a performance major (other than voice or piano naturally), he would never have to take a piano class in college.</p>

<p>When my son origionally auditioned, the applied music professor had a question and answer meeting prior to the audition. One of the other potential students noticed a piano in his studio and asked the professor about his piano skills. the professor explained that he played well enough to accompany a student, but not well enough to “play for pay”.</p>

<p>My college sophomore music ed son didn’t start playing piano until half way through his Jr. year in high school, but he plays at a fairly high level, and surpassed many (all?) of his piano teacher’s students in just a few months of lessons combined with a rediculous amount of practice at home. </p>

<p>At two of the colleges that he auditioned, he auditioned on both piano and trumpet. At one of those colleges he was accepted to take private lessons on both instruments, but was only offered a scholarship for trumpet. </p>

<p>This semester he will be taking “beginner group piano” as it is a requirment for all music ed majors. He was origionally planning on taking the exemption test last year, but decided against that since the exemption requirements included some stuff that he had never really practiced, like scales - even though he knows all the notes, his piano teacher never required him to practiced scales. I thought that it would be an easy A for him to take beginer piano, it can’t hurt him, and an easy A or two might help to motivate him.</p>

<p>Just to back up what another poster said, my son learned much more about music theory by learning to play piano, than he learned in high school band or jr. high orchistra. he has a keyboard in his dorm room and finds it helpful for both music theory and aural skills homework. Also there is a piano in every practice room, so when he gets tired or frustrated practicing his primary instrument, he will sometimes take a short break from that and play piano until he feels like tackling his primary instrument again.</p>

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<p>That’s great to know. She’s really looking forward to it!</p>

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<p>Can she transfer to a different school? If she is 100% certain about the music major, or even 90% (and you agree, because teens often don’t think in the long run) then she should do the music. Frankly, having a bunch of honors courses will only help really if she is trying for a selective private school. But the lack of music experience and time will exclude her from a future music major in college.</p>

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<p>Counselor hasn’t yet dealt with CC moms :)</p>

<p>Personally, if it is what she wants, I’d say she should switch the one honors course for the ensemble. She’s still got the other honors courses, right? When its time to explain to colleges why she took a slightly less rigorous path (if she makes a similar choice throughout HS and applies to college that care a lot about rigor), this can be easily explained by the desire to do the music.</p>

<p>My S got significant scholarships everywhere he was accepted and he was only a 3.0 student. It was his dedication to music - in school, in pro bands, in church, everywhere he possibly could do it - that made him such an interesting applicant, I’m sure. He did choose a conservatory but the LACs would have been wonderful for him too.</p>

<p>If she wants to do the ensemble, she should.</p>

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<p>I really think the 100% music all the time student will be very well-liked at all kinds of colleges everywhere. That is the “EC”, all that’s required. Colleges are often looking for a well-rounded class, rather than a “well-rounded” student. My son was awarded a combination of scholarships at one college including a non-music one for “leadership” which I couldn’t honestly figure out, until I remembered the volunteering he did for the younger kids’ summer bands through his school. I think that the schools that want your child for music will find a way. (The other schools aren’t worth worrying about :slight_smile: ) I second (3rd 4th?) piano. It’s so much easier to begin the younger you are, and really necessary. Starting now will not only help with theory, but also save a ton of time & stress down the road.</p>

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<p>This has been such an interesting forum to read through. I have a 100% music all the time daughter, it’s her passion and has been really since she was a little girl. She’s now a Jr. and this year she cut back on academics a fair amount and I support her on that. She’s a very smart girl, and I’m very confidant in her ability. She wants to be a music teacher. Some of her more difficult classes were just stressing her out and her grades were suffering and she was getting run down. She’s basically a 3.25 student. We talked to hr GC and after a discussion we all agreed to some changes. She’s now taking an easier Math and science, she added another music class and an art class for the first time and also is taking Psychology. I can see very clearly that she is doing better. She is going to the All State festival this year and the Board of ED just asked her to sing at their Oct. meeting. I’m not worried about her getting into college because when it’s time for her auditions she will deliver. She might not be as well rounded as some kids but she’s on the path she want’s to be on and I respect that. I do wish she would stop giving me a hard time on her curfew though.</p>

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<p>Also, ask your GC about online HS courses and Dual enrollment (which you probably won’t be able to do until later). These options made it possible for my D’s to participate in music. We had similar problems, but not as challenging as yours. :frowning: I would probably actually put my kid in another school if I couldn’t get it worked out.</p>