<p>I was wondering what some may think about attending a State University Honors Program vs. that of a top ranked school. This State program has a minimum of 29 on the ACT. This is not a decision which needs to be made now as my son is too young for college. But he will most definately be faced with this option when his time comes. The money is quite a bit less at State U (Columbia, MO). Any thoughts?</p>
<p>Yes -- use the "search" function to find the thousands (literally) of CC posts in the past six months on exactly this topic.</p>
<p>I'll summarize them for you, though: Some people think state university honors programs are the greatest thing ever, and that anyone who would let his or her child go to Harvard (and pay for it) rather than State's Honors College is a chump. Other people disagree.</p>
<p>You really have to look at the individual Honors programs at different state u's and see what they each offer. And the student has to be willing to take advantage of what they offer, because they won't necessarily "make" a student take honors classes or participate in the programs offered.</p>
<p>It also depends heavily on what field the kid plans on for his/her future and where. Although this, of course, can be very hard to predict. But if the kid plans to stay local, that can add a lot of points to the state U when you are tallying up the pros and cons. In some cases, being from state U can engender a better reception wrt networking, career-wise, than having an "elite" degree. In other cases, exactly the opposite.</p>
<p>As doubleplay said, Honors programs vary.</p>
<p>But, so do kids, and so do "topped ranked schools"</p>
<p>There really is no universal answer to the question of "which is better" as the answer is "it depends.."</p>
<p>Personally, I would say that if a kid is a typical strong student, meaning one who would be middle of the pack at a top school, and if this same kid likes to be a star (most do?) then they might be better off in a strong honors program (not all are strong). But, if a kid has real star potential, they're likely to get more of what they need at a top school that has more at the top.</p>
<p>But that's just MHO. Your mileage may vary.</p>
<p>Honors programs vary in strength and composition. Some of the things we looked for: guaranteed freshman honors housing (if you send in your deposit on time), honors advising, honors classes restricted to honors students, and the ability to convert a regular class to honors by prearrangement with the professor. You will also find programs that have entire offices devoted to applications for Fulbright, Rhodes, etc for their honors students. Pre-professional, research, and study abroad may also be handled differently for honors students.</p>
<p>MaryTN,</p>
<p>many top schools have a staff member dedicated to the mentoring of Fulbright and Rhodes candidates. I guess the difference is that a state U with a good honors program will pretty much select only from the honors pool. At top privates, anyone could be a contender? Truthfully, though, it is an apples/oranges comparison when you look at the size of the student bodies. And, the honors grads at better state u's do very well in the fellowship competitions anyway.</p>
<p>I presume that you hold a good college education to mean more than course works. Imagine that your son will be made to feel that he is "privileged", able to take classes that exclude other students, able to have separate living quarters, able to register courses ahead of others, receives extra money, advantages of having special advisors for summer programs and fellowships etc, etc. If you think such privileges are consistent with your values and the mandates of a state university or will not distort your value for equality, then go ahead. </p>
<p>I hope you understand that there are others who disagree.</p>
<p>C'mon now, is it that serious?! There is difference between equality in opportunity and equality in ability. Rank and merit has its privileges. Nothing inherently wrong with that perspective at all.</p>
<p>Streak --</p>
<p>We are looking at the same situation for our S. He is a rising senior, and is interested in the same school you mentioned. For him, an honors college at a state U with a GREAT journalism school sounds like a pretty darn good choice. It effectively takes a big state U and makes it a little "smaller" and more personal. At this particular school, a student will take some of their freshman courses in a lecture hall. The difference is that for the groups that normally meet for a break-out session with the TA, the honors students do their break-out session with the professor.</p>
<p>Our doctor had a "funny" honors program story- he said he started out at an honors program student at the state university, and found out that the honors courses were <em>harder</em> than regular. Meaning that his grades weren't going to be as good. So he dropped out of the honors program, ended up getting into med school and the whole bag of wax...
I guess the moral of the story is look into what the program offers, how it works, etc. for each university.</p>
<p>A few years ago I was on a panel conducting "mock interviews" for Truman Scholar candidates in the Honors Program at the University of Kentucky. The brilliance of the kids I interviewed was absolutely amazing. From what I've since learned, the Honors Program at UK (and probably other state institutions) is really a school-within-a-school, and the students enrolled receive an education/attention comparable to what they would get at a high quality LAC. If money is an issue, and your son qualifies academically, this would certainly be something to look into.</p>
<p>Streak - I have one D in a top school and another D in a state university honors program. The two D's are very different, and the schools they chose were very different. Each chose the environment that suited her best.</p>
<p>Often the Honors programs have many of the students who either/or can't afford a more elite private U or did not get accepted into the elite U, not because they weren't good enough, but because there are too many qualified students for the number of available spaces. Flagship state U's tend to let the student decide how easy or hard to make their schedule, one can end up taking the easy or the Honors route- it may be easier to slack off than at a school where all the courses are of a higher caliber than the average course. Do not equate having special housing for Honors students with a better Honors Program- eg, UW- Madison does not segregate students in a special dorm, but the overall student population is at a higher level than some state U's who do have special dorms. Go for the best overall fit. BTW, it doesn't require being a genius to be a good physician, choose the level of difficulty that inspires you.</p>
<p>In my experience (having been a Carroll Wilson scholar at Oxford - a Rhodes, but tied to a specific college), the Rhodes Scholars would have been just as good wherever they went to school, they were superstars anyway, and the main reason that more of them came from so-called top schools is because more of them went there to begin with.</p>
<p>Fulbrights are quite different, and there it is all about preparation. For the past three years, there are virtually no Ivies (nor Williams, nor Swarthmore, nor Amherst) that have come close to the number (and percentage) of undergraduate Fulbrights coming out of Smith and Pomona, and most of that has to do with the preparation the students received after they arrived (in languages and cultural studies, and in advising).</p>
<p>The only thing one can be pretty sure of in comparing the better honors colleges to the prestige privates is that the average income of students at the latter will be far higher. And that's not a putdown - on the contrary, there is a huge amount of education to be gained in associating with students for whom the world is their oyster (just as one could argue that there is also much to be gained from associating with students who have had to claw their way to the top.)</p>
<p>It's really a matter of where one will both feel comfortable and challenged at the same time, and I don't think there is a right answer.</p>
<p>Except there is. IF you had enough money to pay the full-freight at a prestige private (190k over 4 years) but no more, and would pay $90k at a good honors college, I am willing to say, pretty unequivocally, that for the vast majority of high caliber students, the education available at the honors college plus the purchase of of $100k worth of other educational opportunities (three trips around the world, unpaid internships, two years of medical school paid for, five years of volunteer public health work in Africa, etc.) is superior. Hands down. But it's only better if you commit to actually spend the extra $100k on education, and can figure out what you'd do with it. If you can, the opportunity cost of attending virtually any of the prestige privates, for the vast majority of such students, is way too high.</p>
<p>(But if you had the $190k plus the funds for those other opportunities, it's a non-issue.)</p>
<p>Separate from the honors college issue, a top student at a good state school in many instances (especially in the sciences) is likely to get MORE personal attention - research opportunities, internships, etc. - than a middling student at a top private. Remember: wherever one goes to school, precisely 50% of the student body is in the bottom half of the class.</p>
<p>JM(NSH)O.</p>
<p>Mini:</p>
<p>Great post. What do you think about the admissions chances for post-grad. work when comparing State Honor vs. Private? If all factors are equal whom do the admissions people pick?</p>
<p>The Honors program at my sons state U offers a program whereby students are "introduced" to various research scientists with the ultimate goal of plugging them into a project, starting in their freshman year.
My son is definitely not at the top of his honors class, but he has had no problem getting invites to work in labs at UF. Right now he's starting out volunteering just a few hours here and there (he just finished up his frosh year), but he hopes to parlay this into a paid position in the future.</p>
<p>I don't know if this has anything to do with him being in Honors or not. I just seems to have been quite easy for him to get bids to work on research projects for one so young.</p>
<p>I do not have anything to compare to, as I did not go to a private college, nor does anyone in my family. All I can say is that the opportunities my son has had so far have been MORE than enough to fill his plate. I cannot fathom that he would have been any busier or <em>better off</em> anywhere else. </p>
<p>The key is that the kids have to take the opportunities that are given to them. It's all out there, but no one is going to come knocking at your door to get you to sign up.</p>
<p>great comments so far ... the other thought I would add is this decision is very kid specific. For example, some kids will thrive being part of a small subset of honors students at a big school ... they will find their intellectual peers and drive themselves. Other kids may tend towards the behavior of the average of the overall population (as opposed to the honor kids) which at a large state U might not be as achievement focused as the average kid at an elite school. Or, as mentioned earlier, some kids will consider the "special treatment" an earned reward while it will make others uncomfortable.</p>
<p>streak
to allay your fears, i have a D entering her third year of a PhD (Humanities) at a top 25 Midwestern private U..fully funded.... after doing her undergrad at an Honrs College program in a large state U (probably on e of the largest in the US).
She had fabulous mentoring from her dept and the honors staff.She wrote an honors senior thesis,which was the basis for her writing sample for grad admissions, and helped her formulate the area of research she is interested in persuing for her PhD.She loved the varied opportunities she had at large state U and had friends in and not in the Honors College.
Grad School admissions is not based on where you did your undergrad work.Its based on what work you did,who is recommending you,who meshes with you on the grad faculty and whether what you want to do meshes with their research areas/needs.Read the Graduate Forum area of CC for more insight.
And for whoever said the students you find at Honors Colleges at large U's are there b/c they can't afford the privates...sometimes they CAN afford the privates but choose the free rides the Honors will give them...just think..no loans,parents retirement funds intact...maybe the ability to pay for a study abroad.... :)</p>
<p>These honors programs are funny things, though.</p>
<p>For example, when my D applied three years ago (maybe it was four?) she applied to Michigan State. She was invited to take the Alumni Distinguised Scholar exam, even offered a stipend to fly to E. Lansing to take the exam. she went, advanced through the selection and was awarded one of the scholarships. Of course, she automatically qualified for the honors college, too. Yet the honors college also had an attractive program,
[quote]
each year approximately 100 incoming freshmen are awarded Professorial Assistantships (PAs), allowing them to begin to work immediately with a faculty member on research or other scholarly activities. Assistants are expected to work eight to ten hours per week during the academic year and are paid a stipend of about $2100 for the year. Assistants whose first-year performance is satisfactory are reappointed for a second year at a higher stipend.
[/quote]
that she did not qualify for because entrance required NM semi standing (we're from MA, highest qualifying score in the country that year, 223. She had a 220 if I recall...) or SAT combined 1500 (she had a 1490 in one sitting and refused to retake. Don't blame her).</p>
<p>My point is that these honors programs have their own quirks, so read carefully.</p>
<p>My D ultimately passed on MSU and is entering her third year at U. Chicago. My pocketbook cries, but it was a better choice for her, as she has excelled in that environment, winning a national scholarship, PBK her jr. year and such. Would she have done as well at MSU? Who knows. But its social environment would have frustrated her. (full disclosure: I'm a MSU alum....)</p>