Honors College vs. Top-rated schools

Parents Forum
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<p>I'm a graduate of a top liberal-arts college, and my son is applying to large state universities (journalism/political science) this fall. As other posters are saying here, it's hard to pin down what's "best" because it depends so much on the student. I have always been ambivalent about whether my education was better or worth it. My lifelong friendships are the most positive lasting benefit. And yes, I did get a good education in small classes, but it was not by any means a nurturing environment just because it was small. It was pretty tough, and for me, not tough in a good way. So my feeling is: "top-rated" is good only if it suits the student (and the family's finances).</p>

<p>I had not spent much time on a large state-U campus until we started college visits (my H is a proud state U grad). Now I am thrilled my S is headed in that direction. He is a city kid who's tired of small schools. I am so impressed by the academic and extracurricular resources available on these campuses. I know honors programs vary in quality, but I do think they're worth exploring. My S will find his own challenges. And as for his parents, we will be spending within our budget and have funds left over to support life experiences that are all part of his education (not to mention our own retirement).</p>

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<p>Mini, I don't disagree with your analysis. However, I would like to add two points:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>First, for students who are able to choose between a good Honor College versus a highly prestige private, the cost of the Honor College is usually zero rather than the 90K that you alluded to. One may debate whether it is a good way to spend our tax dollars, especially with funding cuts through all state universities in the past decade. Such free rides are more often than not extended to Honor College students who did well on PSAT etc but may not necessarily be prized catches otherwise. </p></li>
<li><p>While it is true that top science students may get more personal attentions at state schools, the quality of research labs are more uneven at such places than those at the top privates. In field where researchers still know each others well, with whom you do your undergraduate research will still matter in gaining entrances to top post-graduate programs.</p></li>
</ol>

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<p>padad,</p>

<p>You are overgeneralizing. </p>

<ol>
<li><p>An in state honors program may have zero cost, but not out of state. And some states recognize the problem you mention.</p></li>
<li><p>Some state U's have nationally recognized programs, even in the sciences! And I think the quality differences are over-rated when comparing public and private departments, especially when you consider that it is individual labs (research groups) that are the "unit" of excellence, not broad labs. Yes, a state U may have some "slacker" labs, but they also need faculty to teach the non-honors classes, of course. At any rate, a top rated lab may not even be the best environment for an undergrad. To use Harvard as an example, many of their top labs are not welcoming to undergrads. (note to flamers, yes, I realize some are welcoming. But I could give you a long list of labs that, from personal knowledge, have no undergrads...)</p></li>
</ol>

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<p>I can only share what I know. Son is a well paid research intern in a research group with primarily grad and post doc students in a national top 12 rated program. He just finished his freshman yr. at this state honors college. Could have gone to cornell, duke and swarthmore as could many of his fellow honors students gone to similiar schools. Graduates have had the opportunity to go on to what others consider top notch programs. </p>

<p>There is plenty of excellent research going on in many, many graduate schools in the United States. I personally believe there is more opportunity and choice at a large research institution. There are many bright kids to go around. They just choose not to be at a top 20 school.</p>

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<p>streak, I would suggest spending a bit of time researching how the Honors program at MU-Columbia works. It is my impression that various departments have a different level of commitment to offering honors sections, to making the honors sections more rigorous, etc. Get the names of the undergraduate directors of every major your student may be interested in and start asking questions. </p>

<p>Like most mid-ranked publics, the type of student found at MU is all over the place, but it definitely includes some very highly qualified, ambitious and focused students. The profs can and do spot them. In fields in which profs bring in external research funds, being an outstanding undergrad can--and does--result in paid research positions and making valuable contacts. </p>

<p>Much depends on the specific personality of your student. There isn't a lot of automatic hand-holding, and outstanding advising for all students is not the norm. I've seen a lot of potentially good students sink rather than swim because they did not aggressively try to make contacts, get answers, find research positions, etc. Independent, mature, responsible students can do very well for themselves. </p>

<p>Newmassdad and others, the honors program at the specific univ. of concern to the OP is a good deal more accessible than some others. Initial placement is on the basis of ACT/SAT I. After freshman year, students can apply for admission no matter what their incoming test scores were. </p>

<p>padad, it is true that the quality of research labs is more variable at this and other publics, but there is plenty of reputable research going on even at mid-level publics (MU is a "research level 1" university, meaning that the overall level of external funding is considerable; it varies widely by department). One doesn't have to be researching in a Nobel winner's lab to gain the type of research experience that helps gain entry to top graduate programs. </p>

<p>streak, I sympathize, and empathize, with you. Part of your job is to research the options, and part is to observe your child's personality. My husband and I are currently trying very hard to teach our 10th grader to be proactive, less shy, less concerned about "being a nuisance". If she doesn't change her approach before the end of hs, I would worry about sending her to a large public, because I would worry that she will get lost.</p>

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<p>newmassdad, Of course I am generalizing. How would one carry on meaningful discussions otherwise. As you well know, MSU certainly has some top labs. If one crosses over to U of M, the number of top labs goes up even higher, and certainly the best labs at U of M, and there are numerous of them, are headed by professors who could be at any institutions in the world. </p>

<p>My original objection to state U honor programs has to do with the inequitities and how such bestowed prelivileges could negatively impact a student's perception on fairness and equality.</p>

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<p>By the same token, would you agree that public school pull-out programs, gifted programs, accelerated programs, honors and AP classes that require minimum standardized test scores, etc are unfair? They usually have the best teachers and the smallest classes. They benefit from resources that the other students do not.</p>

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<p>doubleplay, It is not equivalent. Public schools have the obligation to accomodate the gifted as well as to offer remedial programs for those who need them. </p>

<p>In many large state universities, many students have to plan carefully so that they can enroll in classes to fullfill degree requirements. It could be a frustrating effort. Yet, honor college students are exempted from such. These students are able to register the same courses ahead of the general student population. </p>

<p>A poster here noted that honor college students have breakout sessions with the professor while TA's head the sessions for the general student group. How could such blatantly unfair practices be allowed to continue at our institutions of higher learning, and how do they affect our best and the brightest?</p>

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<p>I don't see the difference, padad. One could argue that it's unfair, but it's completely consistent with public secondary school policies that restrict honors classes and programs to their top students.</p>

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<p>Who benefits? If only the honors student benefits then the college has no reason to set up or continue the program. Someone along the way has decided that the school benefits by luring certain students with merit money and other perks. Son's honors program is very interested in having those students who have shown leadership and community service to be very important to them. I guess they have decided that those qualities in a student will benefit their school.</p>

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<p>and to take this back to the OP ... to me what is most important is how the student in question feels about these programs ... if s/he thinks they are great or OK than go for it ... if these programs rub the student the wrong was I wouldn't try change their opinion and push them towards the program.</p>

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<p>It's impossible to answer broad questions like this so I'll just mention a few points to consider:</p>

<ul>
<li><p>As with anything, some honors colleges are better than others so check it out as you would with any other school.</p></li>
<li><p>Briliant people are going to be briliant regardless of where they go to school and it's the person and their own abilities, not the 'name' of the school they went to, that will ultimately make the difference in the long run</p></li>
<li><p>The subject one is studying also makes a big difference... for example someone studying engineering may find themselves much better off in a large public research university than at an ivy leage school. </p></li>
</ul>

<p>It's really a personal decision, but don't focus too much on a 'name' and focus on what's actually there, how you like the place, what is offered for your particular area of study.</p>

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<p>Pad dad. I don't think there should be any negative impact to student perception and fairness as it relates to the Honors program at UF. From what I understand on the HP at UF, you do not even apply for this program. Once you've been admitted and your grades/gpa meet the requirements then you are sent a letter inviting you to apply for the program, then after review, a student is advised whether or not they have been accepted. What's not fair in that? IMO, just a kid doing great work throughout highschool and reaping the benefits of the perks that comes with this program. For those students who didn't do as great in High School, and then decides to work harder in college, can also benefit from this program at the end of their first fall semester by applying. Basically, the opportunity is out there for everyone, it just depends on whether they want it or not. Doubleplay, reading your post I know how knowledgeable you are on UF, so feel free to comment. I just learned this information after recently taking my HS sophmore son at a science quest camp there recently.</p>

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<p>One advantage that Honor College has to offer is the availability of merit scholarships that will make the cost of attending very low for middle or upper middle class kids. Many of these families are too well off for need base aid but not well off enough to pay $45,000 to $50,000 a year without affecting their finance.</p>

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<p>learninginprog,
Yes, a student can get into the Honors program at UF after the first semester with a minimum GPA. And I also believe that a student can take an honors course even if they are not an honors student if there are available seats. As I recall, my son took an honors elective last year and he said there were non-honors students in it.</p>

<p>I BELIEVE (don't quote me on this) that all students with over a 4.0 and 1400 GPA are invited to be in the program. I've never heard of any students who were turned down after being invited and applying.</p>

<p>And there is only priority scheduling for honors classes, not all classes. </p>

<p>Son chose to take certain subjects (calc and bio, for example) within the honors program rather than general, because the classes were smaller and he got to know his teacher better, and he felt that "made up" for it if there was a difference in difficulty.</p>

<p>Here is more info on the honors program:
<a href="http://www.honors.ufl.edu/faq.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.honors.ufl.edu/faq.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I hope your son enjoyed the Quest Camp. If he is interested, they also do a more intensive program for older high schoolers.</p>

<p>This is a better link:
<a href="http://www.honors.ufl.edu/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.honors.ufl.edu/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>i haven't had time to read through this entire thread, but i am in the honors college at mizzou. i turned down uva for mizzou's honors college--which sounds very similar to the question you're posing: is it worth it?</p>

<p>here's how i decided:</p>

<p>1) after scholarships and one (very small) loan, i will be paying less than $8,000 a year for mizzou (that's not counting spending money but does include traveling, room and board, books, etc) whereas i would have spent around $35,000 at UVa.</p>

<p>2) i plan on going to med school and eventually becoming a doctor and probably raising my family in st louis (my home town) so staying in state and making MO contacts will be beneficial to my future.</p>

<p>3) thus far (i don't actually start for 2 weeks) i have been treated like royalty at mizzou--preferential EVERYTHING--and am eligible for some killer advising. i'm on a first name basis with all four (FOUR!) of my academic advisors based purely on my honors college status and willingness to seek them out.</p>

<p>4) i anticipate being near the top of my class at mizzou. i plan to continue pursuing honors classes. i do not think i would be near the top of my class at virginia. finishing with a solid gpa and class standing is very important to me and i think it will be more feasible to achieve that at mizzou.</p>

<p>5) honors classes at mizzou average less than 20 kids. it's even possible to take non-honors classes for honors credit by arranging it with the professor. there are lots of career exploration seminars and honors sequences at mizzou. here's a sampling: honors humanities sequence involving selected readings from ancient greece and rome, career explorations in journalism or medicine or business. honors classes have lectures with the rest of the students but when they break into discussion groups honors kids get the prof rather than a TA. example of an honors class i'm taking: a one hour seminar with a professor that is currently working with the NIH and CDC to develop new pharmaceuticals for GSK. it's about the history of pharmacology and how current drugs were discovered and how all that ties into how we are designing drugs now. </p>

<p>6) i'm less than two hours from home </p>

<p>i took the honors program at mizzou over my prestigious top choice. it fits me well and i couldn't be happier. it's hard to look back at UVA and see what i passed up, but i've learned to accept that college is what you make of it and that i will become a perfectly capable member of society even if i don't shell out $35,000 a year in tuition to a "big name" school.</p>

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<p>Kristin, thank you for sharing your the reasoning behind your decision making. My son is 16 and looking into his college career. He told me that he would like to go to universities near our home. I was looking into honors colleges in our state. He also wants to go to medical college.</p>

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<p>Kristin,
I think you will be happy with your decision. My son made the same one, although it involved different schools. He always intended to go to grad school and now he has a 4.0 and very little debt going into junior year. He has met lots of really nice kids, both honors and otherwise, and overall it has been a good choice for him. Good luck to you!</p>

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<p>Thanks Doubleplay for the info and providing the link. Yes, Son had a great time at Science Quest. He was also provided with information there about the SSTP (I believe that's what is called). I have PM you for some additional info. Kristin.. Awesome post!</p>

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<p>son is in an honors college and is doing well. His choice boiled down to this program and a few other top 50 privates (not the very top tier- but still very respectable). He enjoys the combination of personal attention and the choices and social atmosphere of a big environment. It's pretty cheap after scholarships so we do plan to support study abroad and other opportunities. </p>

<p>PADAD, I don't think our choice means that we are in favor of elitist programs, funded by taxpayers. For goodness sake, that IS a bit strong. The honors college our son attends is funded by over 50 million in private donations. The kids attracted to this program increase the prestige of the university - many of them go on to get national scholarships and awards. The school doesn't offer acceptances based on SAT scores, it's a very holistic process.
So you think we should have blocked out this outstanding option because it's unfair to other kids? Hey, our public high school has restrictive policies on AP courses and cuts lots of kids from sports team each year. They also give special recognition and perks to high achievers. Not exactly equal opportunity. How is this so different?</p>