I am often asked to tutor students to keep them getting Bs and As in honors math. I some cases it is better to drop down. Eventually, borderline students won’t be able to take AP Calculus or do well on the AP exam anyway. It is often a lot to go through for the student, and better to easily do well in regular math. Also, it is often not a good idea to move up to honors math, which is also often difficult.
I agree. It’s often very stressful to keep up the pace in an honors math class if the student is borderline. As long as the student takes calc before graduating they should be fine.
So much also depends on the teacher assigned to the class, and whether or not his/her teaching style matches up with the kid’s learning style. And on the course itself… Geometry is an entirely different animal than other math courses, and kid’s grades in Geometry can sometimes be radically different from the rest of his or her math grades.
And let’s throw in the kid’s attendance record; I’ve had some honors kids who are absent a lot. (I’m not doubting the cause behind the absence; I’m not the attendance police. But every class the kid misses is one class further behind he or she is.)
In my experience, kids who move down, say from Honors to ‘regular’ math, tend to get the exact same grades they had. Once you hit the upper level math courses, it becomes more about things like study habits and work ethic than about the ability to keep up and understand the material.
Not to hijack the thread, but any thoughts???
@bjkmom we’re struggling picking courses for my daughter. She’s currently a freshman at a super competitive, highly ranked public high school. She took algebra in 8th grade, struggled to end up with the required B- to move into geometry this year. She has an A+ in geometry and loves it. But based on her geometry grade, they are suggesting her for honors Algebra 2 next year. I think it’s a bad idea based on her Algebra 1 struggles.
Also, she has an A+ in CP Biology (she qualified for honors this year but we didn’t want to overload her). We probably should have done Honors Bio. But now, based on her A+, she’s qualified for Honors Chem. I’m horrible at Chem (luckily my husband is a science teacher!), but I remember the struggles of my son in CP Chem. My daughter is a much better student, much harder worker, very internally driven. But she also puts a great deal of stress on herself so I’m really concerned with overwhelming her. Does doing well in Bio serve as any indication she’d be able to handle honors Chem? I’m thinking not.
She will definitely be in honors Latin, English and History (possibly AP history depending on her year end grade) next year. Any thoughts??? My gut is saying stick with CP math & science.
Sometimes, too, the child may have done well in the previous math class and didn’t realize there would be a struggle in the current class. This is happening to my child - straight As no problem (and a 98% in Algebra II) before hitting pre-cal. Then, it’s too late to move down a class. Although, there is no “regular” pre-cal at her school so it wouldn’t make a difference.
It really depends. Why did she struggle in Algebra 1? Did she not know how to study math? One of mine was very capable of learning the material but thought he “got it” more deeply than he did by just doing the homework and understanding the material, but struggled with the major tests because he didn’t get it completely. He realized that he had to study much harder and ended up doing OK. He also had a tutor for a short period of time, as he had gotten behind.
It would also depend on what she wants and where she is aiming for college. If she wants to go to Rutgers, then no need to stress over honors. But if she aiming for the top, she may at least have to try honors. Can she go over the algebra 1 again this summer (and is she willing to do so).
What is your district policy on dropping down to CP if the honors is too hard?
I found choosing math levels to be difficult for one of mine. He would breeze through advanced with an effortless A, but had a much harder time with the tests in honors, even though the teacher said there was nothing he didn’t understand. He ended up moving back and forth between the two levels. Ultimately, it was good for him to take the honors class as it taught him how to study math vs being in a class that required no effort. But he was also not a straight A student so did not really impact his GPA to get B (and one marking period a C).
In my district, parents will hire a tutor for their child for every class to keep them in Honors/AP. Silly if you ask me. Take advanced classes where there is passion and skill and drive. My oldest insisted on taking AP Chem over our objections. (It is THE killer class at our HS…about 2-3 hours of homework per night for kids that are good at it…longer for others.) He finally agreed to drop down at the beginning of the second semester. But by then the stress of that class hurt his grades in other classes. Ouch.
Algebra 1 is fundamental to all the math that comes later (except perhaps Geometry) and to many other subjects, including Chemistry.
If a student has a shaky understanding of the fundamentals of Algebra 1, the student is likely to struggle in many future courses, regardless of whether they’re honors or regular, and may not understand why.
To avoid this type of suffering, it might be a good idea for the student to review Algebra 1 over the summer, with the help of a tutor, who can see what parts of the subject the student might have misunderstood or might be struggling with.
Personally, I wouldn’t suggest Honors Algebra 2 for any student who struggled in Algebra 1,regardless of the Geometry grades. As I mentioned before, Geometry is a different animal. Why set her up for a yearlong struggle unnecessarily?
You know your daughter. Trust your gut.
@SwimmingDad what do you drop down to from AP Chem?
That is an insane amount of homework. My older daughter took IB HL chem and don’t have that much in a double period class.
Around half of the kids tested out a math class in high school regret at the end. They can surely pass the exam of the higher level Math but not necessarily getting an A. So it may hurt the GPA. Some of my D’s friend reached AP Calc BC in junior but could not get a 5 in the AP exam and need to take Calc2 in college freshmen. My D took AP Calc BC in senior without skipping any Math but had the Algebra I (pre-algebra) in 8th grade like half of the class. She scored 5 and received credit for Calc1 and Calc2 in college.
@VickiSoCal Our high school has a large percentage of families from testing cultures, so the expectation on APs is a 5…a 4 and below is considered “failure” by many parents…so the teachers give a ton of homework and extremely challenging exams to achieve the grades. He dropped down to Honors Chem…but the poor kid was so drained he struggled to pull a B. When it came time for his younger brother to sign up we forced him into regular chemistry…which has proven to be a good decision.
Honors chem is a prerequisite to AP chem here. So nothing to drop down to.
Ironically, my husband is a teacher and tutors many kids in algebra! As SwimmingDad said, he makes a fortune tutoring kids in their honors/ap classes. Unfortunately, they 2 of them battle each other at every turn!!! Something she wouldn’t do with a “real” tutor - unfortunately the going rate in my area for a tutor is $85/hour - that just isn’t happening!
My son actually did algebra 1 over, online, the summer before taking Algebra 2 and it really helped. She would also be much more receptive to that because she is very concerned with keeping her grades up.
A lot of her problem was (and is) test panic - she understands the homework, goes for all the extra help sessions and gets it, then just doesn’t do well on the test.
For the student who had difficulty in algebra 1 and is now choosing between regular and honors algebra 2, perhaps these web tests can help:
http://www.math.buffalo.edu/rur/ruria4.cgi (covers algebra 1 concepts to assess readiness for the equivalent of algebra 2)
http://math.tntech.edu/e-math/placement/ (part I covers algebra 1 concepts)
Based on the results, the student can review those topics which s/he has difficulty with before going into algebra 2 (whether regular or honors).
it depends on the teacher, too. My daughter is not “mathy”. Senior year in high school, she was sure she was not meant to be in CalcBC and wanted to drop down to AB. Her math teacher called us and said, “she belongs in this class. If she works hard, I promise she’ll get at least an A- in the class and 5 on the AP test.” He was right. She pulled an A- in the class (by the skin of her teeth) and thought the AP exam was pretty easy. She scored a “5”. As did virtually all of the 30 or so kids in that CalcBC class, even those who got lower grades in the course. The teacher can make a huge difference.
Sometimes it makes sense, to drop out of honors, but not always.
My daughter tested into compacted math at the end of 5h grade. Her 6th grade math teacher was good and she did fine. Then, she had a terrible math teacher in 7th grade. It was suggested that she, along with quite a few more students, might want to consider dropping to the grade level class in 8th grade. I knew my daughter was a capable student provided she had a competent teacher. I rejected the suggestion, explaining that she would have private tutoring over the summer to shore up her skills. She went on to do Integrated Math 1 in 8th grade and she is absolutely acing it, one of the top students in her entire grade. Having said that, the plan was to give my daughter solid math skills and to give her added flexibility so that she may fit in marching band in high school and still be able to graduate with either AP Calc AB or AP statistics.
Sometimes the purpose of hiring tutors is not so much to bump up the grades but to make sure that the kid gains the skills that the kid, for whatever reason, is not learning in class, especially skills that are foundational and non negotiable.
Here’s the problem with depending on the teacher though: they frequently change.
There have been any number of occasions over the years when I’ve received a phone call in August, changing my preps. Sometimes someone has quit at the last minute… in or out of my department. (So it’s possible that someone with dual certification moves over to fill a science prep, for example, meaning that math preps are also changed.) Or that someone goes out on maternity leave and that I’ll cover that class for 6-8 weeks. Or that the teacher who was so phenomenal last year is now facing health or family issues at home and isn’t at his/her best when your child is enrolled in the class.
So while having the right teacher can make a huge difference, it’s absolutely not something you can bank on. I’m certified for Math 7-12, and can teach any math course offered in our building. And, with the exception of Math 8 (somehow), I have.
@bjkmom True, you can’t rely entirely on a teacher or that a normally good teacher will not be facing exceptionally challenging circumstances. That maybe one of the main reasons for a parent to hire a private tutor. The year my older daughter was to take AP Spanish, the tough teacher with a fantastic record suddenly quit. A non native inexperienced teacher replaced her. I am a native speaker, so I took the responsibility of guiding my daughter with editing her essays etc., and she did fine, but the non heritage language kids without outside help struggled unnecessarily. On her Senior year, the AP Calc veteran teacher retired. He was replaced by a young inexperienced teacher. Pretty much all but the kids with private tutors failed and or dropped out of AP Calc. Neither of those teachers were allowed to stay in those positions past that one year, but the damage was already done for those students.
I think one question to ask yourself/your student is “do you have a passion for or even like math?” before putting them on an advanced math track. I have witnessed the real downfall of putting kids in a higher level math because they “test” well in middle school. My DS has a group of friends who are the brightest in his class. They were all placed on the high math path and it was miserable for several of them (my DS included). I believe two of his friends stopped at AcceleratedTrig because they hated math so much. We dropped DS down to Regular Trig and he barely pulled a B out of Math Analysis (pre-calc). What I determined is that many of these kids had no business on the high math path because they did not really understand the concepts, but were excellent at memorizing. As the math progressed and they to actually understand the concepts, they began to fail because their foundations were not solid. Some kids absolutely belong on a high math path, but I think they are the exception not the rule. There is quite a push to force what was once college-level math “down” to high school and I think many kids are being presented material that their brains are not developmentally ready to understand.