Honors Math, worth it if it's a struggle?

Pre-College Issues High School Life
1

My 2nd was placed in honors math going into HS. We never asked, they just assigned her. Smart kid, but not a math genius.

The math program is a special “accelerated” 2 year program, and it’s new. So as freshman, it’s Honors Algebra/Geometry, and then as sophomores, it is Honors Geometry/Alg2. This is essentially 3 years of math in 2 years, sped up. She is a sophomore now, and had the same teacher two years in a row. He’s supposedly a good math teacher, but he’s a bit of a tough guy. Last year she battled her way to a C. In all of her other courses, honors and non honors, she is an A student with a few B+.

Now she is in year two, first quarter ended and she got a C. She tends to ace all homework, practice tests, and then on every test she ends up with a 60-80 somewhere.

She absolutely will NOT go into a math related career (she is an amazing artist, likes to act in schools plays, into reading/writing). She does well enough with science (honors) and is even doing well in AP Intro to Programming as a sophomore (A- in Q1).

We’re wondering … if she could get B+ grades (or maybe even an A) in ACP math, why bother with honors and her getting a C? Or even worse, something like a D? Her Q2 grade is now a D because she got a 60 on the first test.

In the end, like I said, I personally don’t care about honors math for her, other than how it looks on a college application, but I am thinking the stress, the C’s, may not be worth that for her. I have tried to encourage her to battle through the adversity, and she has tried, but in my opinion, 1.25 years in, it’s not working.

2

I hate to tell you to bump her down a level in math, but given that GPA is one of the most important factors in admission to most four year colleges, it could be the wise choice.

Her choices can close doors - or at least make them much more difficult to squeeze through. She has to do her own soul searching on this. If she likes science or programming enough to consider any of those areas as a career, like it or not, she has to do reasonably well in high school math. If she truly has talent in art, drama, or language arts, she’ll be happier and more likely to shine if she focuses her time on becoming a superstar in those areas (vs. hours of intensive math tutoring).

You know your high school best, which should factor into your decision. In DD’s high school, there is an enormous difference in workload and difficulty between regular classes vs. honors or APs. A lot of subjects lack a happy medium that might make jumping tracks in either direction a more satisfying choice. Hopefully your HS is different, but the fact that you are agonizing over this choice indicates it may not be so.

Follow your daughter’s lead on this. As parents, it is painful and stressful to watch our kids struggle. It might be harder on you than it is on her. Have a talk and find out.

3

I’d agree with @Groundwork2022. She has already proven that she has the grit and has hung in there. Given the competitive climate of college acceptances, I’d pull her now before she has another C on her report card. She should still dig deep in math ( maybe even be an A student in the average level).
Another thing is, it might be a bad fit with the teacher. Not that the teacher is bad or incompetent. More of a bad fit. Some people communicate in a way that can be tough to decode. My kid has a current teacher like that. It’s really hard to discern what the teacher is focusing on, and what is important and what is not.

4

Agree with stepping down to regular level. The class environment together with all the accelerated kids might not be the best fit for a student who would might get more out of a more measured pace. If she takes regular Algebra 2 as a sophomore, she can still continue with pre-calc as senior and even take calculus AB as senior, which is plenty of math preparation for most college and career plans. Good luck.

5

It looks like the current math sequence is honors and accelerated (three years compressed into two years).

If she steps down from honors to regular level, would it also be a non-accelerated version? If so, there could be additional pros and cons associated with that:

a. She may be able to learn the material better at the non-accelerated pace. (pro)
b. She may have to take an additional year of math to get to the desired level, which may not be what she wants, may take up schedule space instead of something she really wants, and may not be good for her GPA. (con)

Or is regular level also accelerated (three years compressed into two years), so that she would be on the same math track, just non-honors?

6

The question for me is not the GPA but is she learning? If she is struggling to get a c put her in the appropriate math class. Getting C’s on the test but A’s on homework/quizzes could be test anxiety also.

Has she gone to the teacher for help. Isn’t he concerned about her at parent /teacher conferences? Have you talked and discussed with him?

7

@Knowsstuff - yes, I do think it’s a bad fit with this teacher, for a few reasons.

The teacher is one of those teachers who prides himself on asking questions on tests on material not covered. Claims “honors kids should just know to be aware of things they don’t know”. I’ve noticed with my oldest that in honors, at least here, there are two approaches usually taken. One is more material, deeper coverage, more homework. The other is the same as that, except the teacher likes to always add in zingers to all the tests (things not covered), where the teacher takes pride in getting a 95 or greater on a test is almost an act of luck, or just excessive extra studying. AP classes here, on the other hand, are always more like the former since the goal is to teach at a college level, not necessarily to play “stump the students”

He plays the scary/tough guy role, and is 6’5" and very loud. This was the teacher, who on her second day of high school (terrified and still lost trying to find classrooms), penalized her forgetting her math calculator and made her take the quiz without it. Wanted to teach her a lesson. I’m fine with that approach, just not on the second day of HS for a new freshman.

She has also had him 2 years in a row, so it’s hard for me to even know how she would have done with a different honors math teacher. Lastly, the teacher continually tells the class he doesn’t believe in the compressed program, that it cannot work and makes no sense, and that they just have to keep up anyway.

Our parent teacher conference with him is actually tomorrow, obviously we plan to get his take. Last year he said he felt she could get a B. She didn’t. The pattern continues to be tests. We have taken her a tutor at times, and she always understands the tutoring and claims to always get the homework and test prep, then the test has stuff on it that wasn’t covered (in her opinion), so she ends up with a 60-80 on the test. In 1.25 years, she has only had one A on a test. I would say it may be test anxiety, but she didn’t have this issue before this teacher in middle school, and doesn’t have it in other subjects that I can see (A- average in all other classes).

In the end, I think it causes her a lot of anxiety and stress. She’s not going to Harvard, nor will she go into math or engineering. Her weighted GPA for year 1 was a 3.67, and probably would have been closer to a 3.9 if not for the C in math. Her dream job is to be an artist … but she (and we) all know the story of the starving artist, so she wants to go into digital animation, graphics, etc - something in the tech stack, but not hardcore algorithmic math programming. She’s doing very well in her AP intro to programming course (A-).

8

My gut would have her drop down a level in math. We did something similar for my D is Spanish (which wasn’t her strength academically) and it was the best thing we ever did – it relieved a lot of stress, she did better, moved into a class with a teacher more suited to her, and she could focus more time and energy on the honors classes in her areas of interest.

9

It’s called “Honors” on the transcript. I am not sure if that is only because it is compressed, or it is also taught like an honors class. My understanding is that he teaches the class the same way (rules, regulations, amount of work) as he does his normal honors non-compressed class. What I can tell you is that all of the kids in the class were like her. Some kids as freshmen went right into Honors Geometry. These were all kids who took Kumon and such in middle school so they all knew Algebra already before HS, and proved it on the end of year evaluations. My daughter did not go this extra $$ pay to play route, so she and about 59 other kids were put into two honors compressed classes, based on the fact that they did very well in math in MS.

I do not think so, our school is in a transitional period. My kid is the guinea pig. There is a 2 year plan where they plan to move ALL freshman to start in Geometry by 2019 or so. At that point there would be a choice of honors geometry and regular geometry. But in the interim, there are 3 tracks for your first two years right now:

  1. Standard ACP Algebra followed by ACP Geometry
  2. Honors Alg/Geo followed by Honors Geo/Alg2
  3. Honors Geo followed by Honors Precal

There is no Honors Algebra for freshman. and soon it will be:

  1. ACP Geometry, ACP Precal or ...
  2. Honors Geo followed by Honors Precal
10

As someone who had this type of experience, I say drop her down a level. I went to Bronx HS of Science, at barely age 13, and was somehow placed into an honors geometry class based on my entrance exam results. I struggled and hated it. Eventually, after I literally threatened to kill myself, my parents had me moved to a regular algebra class (which I had never been exposed to and I went in mid year) but the damage was done. I despise math and went to great lengths to avoid it in college by taking CLEP exams for credit. That said, my middle son made it through AP Calc BC in HS, the highest level offered by our HS, but it was HIS choice.

There is no need to struggle with honors in a subject you hate and have no desire to major in, especially if Ivy is not your goal. My AP math son took regular English all the way through, even though he got a 760 on the verbal SAT and a perfect 36 on the English ACT, because he didn’t enjoy English class. He took AP in science and social studies.

11

Drop her! A C is a GPA killer and there is zero benefit to being constantly behind.

12

For your daughter’s intended major, I would also drop down to regular math.

FWIW, the adding questions that aren’t directly covered and class and homework was my dd’s typical experience in HS STEM courses. The teachers are trying to get kids to apply the knowledge they do posses to solve novel problems. That foundation has served her super well so far in her first year of engineering. Personally we thought the best teachers were the ones who encouraged that kind of problem solving/thinking. Definitely not applicable to all majors though!

13

After reading this not sure why you were not more involved. I personally don’t take that stuff from a teacher. Drop her down for her sanity. She evidently is not ready for this type of teacher. Not sure why she didn’t just not take him this year since you already knew her bad experience last year?

14

@momofsenior1 Just wanted to add in, I don’t believe that my DD (is that the term for dear daughter? This jargon is new to me) is one of those kids who only can pass if everything is spelled out for her. I love the idea of teachers teaching concepts, and then hoping the kids can apply them. And she seems to do well with that in all other courses. But her claim is that there is just stuff on the tests that there is no way to know. I’m not sure I entirely trust her though, kids have their own biases :slight_smile:

15

Heh, my kids would say I am far TOO involved. As an example, I met with the teacher and guidance counselor after the calculator incident (really the only time with any of my kids I have taken issue with a teacher). He defended the move by saying it was just a quiz and wouldn’t hurt her grade. In the end, it did, however, because it was an F quiz. The B’s that came after only brought her grade up so much.

I sometimes struggle with babying my kids, versus letting them “battle it out” and try to overcome. A little adversity, etc. I explain that not every boss or manager will make sense to you. Last year, she spent the year battling to get a B-. She started off with C’s in the first two quarters, and then got B’s in the second two. She ended up finishing with a 78.5 or something and a C+, which was tough for us/her.

She then said she WANTED to stay in honors math, wanted the challenge. We discussed moving her down with her, and she didn’t want any part of it. Now, 25% through this second year, she might be changing her mind. Ideally we would have had a different teacher, but he is the only teacher teaching this accelerated course. And being honest with myself, it’s hard for us to know - maybe she just isn’t able to do it (teacher aside).

16

Parenting sure is a fine balance! FWIW, I think you made the right call with your dd (yes, dear daughter).

How is she feeling about the class now. Does she want to drop? If not, is this teacher available for tutoring? What does he think?

In thinking about it, at my daughter’s high school, a B- was the minimum grade required to continue on an accelerated track.

17

@momofsenior1 I just asked her today, and she is blaming herself and not the teacher. Says her mistakes are NOT the complexity of the items, but missing negative signs, inverting something, etc. She went over corrections on the test she just got a 64 on and fixed all of her own mistakes while the teacher watched. No option to re-take tests, however.

I asked her again about dropping down, and she said she thinks that might be a waste because she may get a B- in “regular” math anyway since her problem is what she calls test day mistakes.

We are going to be talking to the teacher tomorrow night anyway (our 480 seconds long parent teacher conference time slot)

18

Yeah, dropping down a level doesn’t fix careless errors. How is she avoiding making those same mistakes on the homework?

19

Not sure. She is trying, though. I have a hard time understanding because I was never frazzled by tests, actually was just a good test taker. May not be the case with her, she says the tests make her mess up. But only in math.

20

I actually think that’s a good thing to be struggling with because it means she understands the concepts! I would ask the teacher what he recommends to avoid making those types of errors. Is she rushing through the tests? If she knows those are the types of mistakes she’s making, she should be able to go back to check for them if she has enough time. BTW, your daughter sounds great! I love how she’s thinking through this!