Honors program--what is it really like

Colleges and Universities A-Z Tulane University
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<p>" Claysoul, so happy for you that you are pleased with yourself and your analogies. Those of us who are balancing jobs, taxes and tuition and still have other kids at home are just trying to make sure the family finances aren't suffering for naught."</p>

<p>Well I'm glad you enjoyed my exuberence. Those of us balancing midterms, term papers, student loans, tuition, bad roomates, delapedated dorms, scholarship applications, teacher, peer, school, and parental pressure are just making sure we also aren't "suffering for naught."</p>

<p>Along, can you not see a good hearted attempt to lighten the mood of an obviously tense situation? </p>

<p>Concerned, people who wan't to see the real tulane, good and bad, do not want rose-colored glasses. I'm glad you have them. But they are not helpful here.</p>

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<p>"Along, can you not see a good hearted attempt to lighten the mood of an obviously tense situation?"</p>

<p>Guess not.</p>

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<p>The sorry thing is that no one was tense until someone showed up and started telling people they had no right to "speak." That's inappropriate in a public forum. I don't care that I myself was "given permission" to speak as I had not offended the protester. </p>

<p>I don't need anyone's permisison, and neither does anyone else here.</p>

<p>As for rose-colored glasses, I sat and listened to a Tulane student on the Tulane campus last March for two hours, and he was, if anything, MORE enthusiastic than anything I have heard from parents on this forum about this subject. He was speaking as an individual--in no way connected to the program that had invited my son to visit. He wasn't the only student I ran into who had such glowing reports for anyone who cared to ask about the place.</p>

<p>Therefore, it seems to me that what some may perceive as rose-colored glasses are more likely simply a balance to their own negative views. I say let everyone have her or his say. We are all big kids here. No one ought to be taking what they read on a public forum as gospel, anyway. And certainly, no one ought to be trying to shut anyone else up!</p>

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<p>I think the bottom line is that Hnbui and I see a lot of negative here at Tulane. And we simply get frustrated seeing people who don't even go here sing Tulane's praises and rationalize its faults without regard to the negative. We don't want other people to become misinformed about Tulane before coming as we were. People who aren't even college students and know of Tulane's details vicariously aren't helpful for that. Your kids like it here? Fantastic. I do too. But to expand that into everything at Tulane is wonderful and to talk about details like you actually know about the school's ins out and outs first hand is misleading and unfair to students in need of honest information.</p>

<p>I only WISH someone had honestly told me the majority of honors classes do not exist before finding it out the hard way upon arrival, because this was a huge problem for me. Instead, I had lots of parents reassuring me of the unwavering wonders of Tulane without any actual substance.</p>

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<p>That sounds as if it could lead to useful information. Can you tell us, for example, of the total number of possible Honors classes this year how many were actually offered? Can you break it down by general category (math/science/humanities--many honors programs do much better at hmanities than at the sciences amd maths)? If you can do that, then you would indeed be offering useful, objective information, always acknowledging that there can be Honors options for regular classes at Tulane.</p>

<p>Maybe you can even tell us something concrete about what such an Honors option might mean for a specific class? This is the kind of honest information I think we all crave, and it differs enormously from sweeping generalizations, either positive OR negative.</p>

<p>I know our family would be most grateful for such information if you'd like to share it.</p>

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<p>There are probably 30 honors courses a semester. Most are language, math, some physics, history or english. There are no natural science (biology or chemistry) honors courses. I havent' seen any psychology, either, except for one stellar looking one next fall. There's one intro econ and poli sci but nothing advanced or interesting. It's nothing like what's in the catalog. Also, most honors class will be offered one semester and then never offered again. Granted, there are still some cool ones. But they are also hard to fit in your schedule because only one section is offered, which may conflict with that one section of genetics offered that you have to have that term. </p>

<p>One thing that frustrates me is that they have a hard time getting enough people for the courses! What is that? I guess the students just don't care. Some don't want to take a "harder" course. </p>

<p>Also, many aren't taught, ESPECIALLY in the sciences BECAUSE TEACHERS DON'T WANT TO TEACH THEM. That, to me, is the height of ridiculousness. </p>

<p>One of the reasons I CAME to Tulane was the honors courses. I expected to be taking honors chem, honors psychology seminar, and honors genetics. Nu uh. 200 people classes for me. And the intro classes invariably have the crappy or the inexperienced teachers. The upper level ones -- the good ones -- don't want to teach. </p>

<p>Now, concerneddad, I know your son has had a different experience in that he has been lucky enough to land some of the good teachers, e.g. the head of the cell department for cell 101. BUT PLEASE BE WARNED THIS IS THE EXCEPTION. You may find TA's also teaching courses </p>

<p>One thing tha'ts great about honors courses -- if they are ever taught, that is -- is that the teachers generally want to teach them. I took a honors colloquia with 5 great teachers.</p>

<p>One more thing -- I walked by a Tulane days tour the other day and, after listening to the tour guide, I wanted to go scream and kick her. She pointed to the lecture hall building and said that that was the biggest building, and that it held about 150 people. But you would only EVER have a class in there if it was say, chem 101 or bio 101. And that no matter what, you'd have a lab session with a TA and 10 people to go over all the material and ask questions. </p>

<p>This couldn't be more untrue!. First, the classes are upwards to 225 people. TA SESSIONS DON'T EXIST! I DON'T KNOW WHERE SHE GOT THAT! THAT HAS NEVER EVER EVER HAPPENED!!!! And you will be taking advanced courses like Orgo and experimental or abnormal psych in that building too, and they will be JUST AS BIG. Then other classes, like 400 level microbiology or biochem, will also have almost 100 people. The same applies for 300 level Brain and behavior and Cell neuroscience...everything natural science!!!!! Physics and math classes will start smaller, and will be very small by the end. THIS IS NOT TRUE OF ANY OTHER SCIENCE. BE FOREWARNED. In my mind there is no excuse for a school this size to have such large upper l evel classes. </p>

<p>Also, other intro classes tend to be big, or always lecture format. My women's studies intro class had more than 40 people. We luckily had an awesome teacher who made it all discussion. We moved all the desks around into a big circle and talked. It was great, but just awkward because of hte size. YOu had to talk loudly!</p>

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<p>While I appreciate the hard info I am able to glean from the above, I have a hard time determining what exactly is true when you use absolutes like "never" and "invariably" so freely and say that you know that professors don't want to teach honors courses. (Having taught in com. college and uni, I can tell you that such courses are fought over!). </p>

<p>I really was looking for objective information. Maybe this is why we need to hear the other side of the story...</p>

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<p>ClaySoul, what year are you?</p>

<p>As a parent, I don't "Know" anything. However, re the non-existence of TA's. It is my understanding that the Engineering dept. does not use TA's. However, I had dinner with a young woman, coming for her PhD next year in Math (already has an advanced degree in another field) who, in fact, is hired to be a TA/lab instructor in a math/science field. So they do exist.</p>

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<p>Hmmm. Unhappy students claiming that Tulane's honors program is selling a bill of goods that it doesn't quite live up to. Proud parents justifying spending their hard earned $$ to send DD or DS to a relatively highly ranked institution. Kind of difficult to take either perspective at face value.</p>

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<p>well, kiddly, there appears to be a degree of truth to everyone's experience. I know, as I have said before, that my son could not take an Honor's course this year because the only one that he "needed" (he is on a "fast-track to get through his pre-med) -- physics -- conflicted with the Cell Bio class he wanted (as ClaySoul pointed out, and he/she must know my son, he had a great bio prof.)</p>

<p>On the otherhand, even ClaySould acknowledges that there have been some great offerings.</p>

<p>To one degree or another, except for true LACs, these problems will exist. Indeed, it has always been my belief as a lawyer that someday, someone, will win a case based on College A promoting a Dept based on the strength of world-class faculaty that NEVER teaches at the undergrad level. And trust me, my wife works at a state flagship U, and that happens all the day, in many depts.</p>

<p>So, here is the best advice I can give -- to students and parents alike -- do what we did. We spoke to Dean Jean -- numerous times -- before our son made his decision to go to Tulane. Call Dr. brady, as questions, as then hold his or the adminstrations feet to the fire if they do not deliver.</p>

<p>I cannot speak to anyone else's experience, but for MY son, he has so far gotten everything HE has wanted out of Tulane. This will not be true for everyone, you still have to do your own research, and these boards should only be a PART -- maybe even a small part -- of the research.</p>

<p>BTW, thank to everyone for bringing the discussion back to the issue, rather than the personalties. The former benefits everyone, the latter no-one.</p>

<p>CD</p>

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<p>Yup, concerneddad, thats what I was getting at. There is indeed a kernel of
"truth" to what everyone is saying but the reality always lies somewhere in between. i.e. Don't take what you hear on this discussion board as gospel truth. </p>

<p>Make up your own minds based on your experiences/visits/discussions with others. Duh! I'm not a big fan of those who make a poor decision and then attempt to blame everyone but themselves...</p>

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<p>neither am I, but I do not read ClaySoul as having taken that position. I think he/she is simply saying everything is not a great as some would believe. And, for ClaySoul, and others that may indeed be true.</p>

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<p>"I really was looking for objective information. Maybe this is why we need to hear the other side of the story..."</p>

<p>Hrm, that was objective information. I do my research guys. Extensively. The use of capital letters, the word never, and an zealous tone (especially when these issues have obviously been a sensitive issues and large problems for me and many students) in no way deligitimizes my information. Don't read a book by its cover. </p>

<p>So if you would like to find out just how "objective" it all is and how much was a result of what seems to be in your view a temper tantrum related rant, let's go through this piece by piece. (p.s. don't ask for someone's help and then condescend them...) </p>

<p>So: </p>

<p>" There are probably 30 honors courses a semester. Most are language, math, some physics, history or english. There are no natural science (biology or chemistry) honors courses."</p>

<p>Go look at the fall or spring class schedule. There were about 40 in the fall (I stand mildly corrected). They are in those disciplines. Languages, intro math, intro physics, and one intro writiing are the staples. The overall schedule does not change that much, </p>

<p>As you can see, there are no biology, chemistry, honors courses. </p>

<p>"It's nothing like what's in the catalog. "</p>

<p>There are several listed in the catalog that have not been taught in years. Look at former class schedules and call course departments. I did. I will address this further later. </p>

<p>"you know that professors don't want to teach honors courses."</p>

<p>I've done my research. When I came here and was baffled to find out I could not, and most likely never could take honors chem, o chem, genetics, psych, etc. I was in rampant denial and so I called the departments on many occasions. Some people had never even heard of the classes. Others said they haven't been offered for years and probably never will. Why, the said? "Teachers don't want to teach them and low student interest"</p>

<p>I have emailed Dr. Brady endlessly about the small selections of courses, and he says he bargains with the deparments every semester to offer courses, but the teachers are very reluctant to do so. I talked to a psych professor at the beginning of the school year during a women in science meeting about the honors psyc seminar, which I desperately wanted to take, but he said it probably wouldn't be offered because the only teacher who ever wanted to teach it would probably be on sabatical for a while. </p>

<p>And then, as mentioned in a previous post, when only 5 people sign up for the class, the professors and departments don't consider it worth their time (so says Dr. Brady) and are even more reluctant to offer courses. </p>

<p>I find this to be absolutely inexcusable at an institution of higher learning and teaching. Hence the use of capital letters.</p>

<p>"Some don't want to take a "harder" [honors] course." </p>

<p>Straight out of the horses mouth...</p>

<p>"...and that it held about 150 people. But you would only EVER have a class in there if it was say, chem 101 or bio 101. And that no matter what, you'd have a lab session with a TA and 10 people to go over all the material and ask questions.
This couldn't be more untrue!. First, the classes are upwards to 225 people. TA SESSIONS DON'T EXIST! I DON'T KNOW WHERE SHE GOT THAT! THAT HAS NEVER EVER EVER HAPPENED!!!! "</p>

<p>Firstly, that ever was a quote from the tour guide. </p>

<p>Remember, I attend school here, and this is the darned truth. That building holds up to 225 people! I'm not sure how else to prove that to you except by showing you a room map. I can say with certainty, however, that my chemistry class had 180 people, my psych class also had 180, and Hnbui's environmental Bio class had 225. Please check the course enrollments if I am still not credible enough for you. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.tulane.edu/%7Eregistra/sched.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.tulane.edu/~registra/sched.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Note: when looking at the fall schedules, remember that 100 level courses are usually taken by freshman who have not registered yet</p>

<p>My large lecture classes have never (that would be appropriate usage. You know, when something has never actually happened) had TA sessions. We have labs once a week in which we conduct a lab. However, they have around 20 people in them and we do not get assistance with any course material. We get in and out as quickly as possible. (It's a 3 hour class and we're always out within 2). </p>

<p>These are taught by TA's. In my experience (and this is only my experience), I find the TA's very inadequate. I have had significant problems with mine, both semesters. This semester's TA reffered to my very serious medical condition that effects my class work as "clandestine ailments" not related to my work, and believes that the real problem "is my lack of respect and poor planning" and has refused to give me my alloted accomodations offered by the Office of Disability Services. This was not only extremely offensive, but a violation of my rights as a person with disabilities. </p>

<p>" And you will be taking advanced courses like Orgo and experimental or abnormal psych in that building too, and they will be JUST AS BIG. Then other classes, like 400 level microbiology or biochem, will also have almost 100 people. The same applies for 300 level Brain and behavior and Cell neuroscience...everything natural science!!!!! Physics and math classes will start smaller, and will be very small by the end. THIS IS NOT TRUE OF ANY OTHER SCIENCE. BE FOREWARNED."</p>

<p>I will take some of the work out for you and provide you with class enrollment figures for upper level courses. </p>

<p>100 level Chem II: 80 people
100 psych: 174 people
200 Genetics: 100 people
300 Molecular Biology: 80 people
300 Brain and behavior 114 people and 50 people (in the spring, since they actually offer two sections (this is rare, please see other listings on that website, e.g. fall term, in which 70 are enrolled and 3 are waitlsited for this required nsci/psyc course)<br>
200 level organic chemistry: 135
200 level exp. psych: 150 people</p>

<p>Most of the 200 level and above courses only have one section. If Tulane had just one more teacher teach just one more section, class size would be cut in HALF and there would be a lot more happy science students. Then maybe there wouldn't be a mere 80% retention rate. </p>

<p>You get the idea. </p>

<p>As an aside, sometimes these courses will not fill their maximum number of students (aka 68 instead of 100, cell bio), so there are exceptions if you are lucky. </p>

<p>"And the intro classes invariably have the crappy or the inexperienced teachers"</p>

<p>You're right, invariably is the wrong word to use here. I'll replace it with often and tell you my experience (and that of many). My psych teacher is a psy D, not phD and this is her first year teaching. This semester she's not too bad. But last semester I hear she was terrible (Hnbui, you can attest). Both my chem 1 and 2 teachers were foreign, one had never taught, and one had never taugth gen chem. This really effects quality! They could be really great, but they need experience! Instead Tulane recycles professors and we end up with adjunct after adjunt first year professors. </p>

<p>I'll finish this later as I now have to go eat at our really gross cafeteria (and yes, I know your son loves it, Concerned dad, and so does my friend that i'm going with, but frankly, they are out of their minds :) (i mean that with love...PLEASE don't go off.</p>

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<p>100 level Chem II -- 80 people. Gee, I think my class was about 750. I thought that big until my DW told me that at her even larger state university the class was over 1,200 and taught via television in multiple auditoriums! I guess it's all in your perspective.</p>

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<p>That was a typo, sorry. 180 people. </p>

<p>HOw large was your school? Tulane has 7,000 people, which is pretty small. It is understandable for an intro course to be big, but there is no excuse for an upper level course to have 80 or more people when only one sectoin is offered, and, if just one more was added, class size would be cut in half. </p>

<p>One of the main problems surrounding this issue, and i think of one of the reasons hnbui and I are frustrated about people sugar coating tulane, is that we were given misinformation by the school before we came. I came for Tulane days and listened to President Cowen TOUT having small classes, but its just not true. College meant a lot to me, and I felt almost betrayed!</p>

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<p>" Unhappy students claiming that Tulane's honors program is selling a bill of goods that it doesn't quite live up to. "</p>

<p>We're not "claiming," we are reporting the facts. Tulane's honors program, though nice, is not everything it says it is, primarily because there are an abundance of honors courses in the catalog that are not offered. Ever (yes, ctymom, ever, as in they do not exist. this is again correct usage and once again is an example of how my use of ever and never does not always undermine my point. ).</p>

<p>Let me be clear -- I like the honors program, the honors course I took was wonderful, and Dr. Brady and the roundtables are neat. But its not everything it could be or says it is. There is no real honors community (at least not this year), the lack of courses and events, etc. However, I am infinitely glad I was accepted into the honors program and live in Butler and think I would like Tulane much less if I wasn't. Dr. Brady and Dean Jean are there for you and great recources. It has many perks, and there are many I have failed to do more than scratch the surface of (roundatbles -- i always have something conflicting, it seems -- and dean jean on the mezzanine, for instance). I have NEVER (yes, ctymom..never) denied this. I am just also trying to warn people of the faults. </p>

<p>Many people paint it as heaven, when it has flaws and deficiences. Which, concerned dad, is one of the problems with talking to Dean Jean and Dr. Brady about it. They of course love the program (why shouldn't they...they design it) and are going to sing its praises. Dean Jean's descrpition of the honors program is basically what made me come here, however, it really doesn't live up to all it is touted to be!! I just want people to know that. </p>

<p>I think most of my information is very objective. As you'll notice, I often offer a counter positive point when mentioning a negative aspect. I'm not exaggerating, I'm speaking from my first hand experience, research and digging I have done, and peopole I have talked to. </p>

<p>For t he 1200 time, I like Tulane as a whole! Every school has its negatives, I just think Tulane has more than I would like! And I feel misled by incorrect information given to prospective students</p>

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<p>well, ClaySoul, if you know my son, you then know that Bridgette at Bruffs takes good care of him. And, I have not gone "off" on you -- ask my son, if I go "off" on someone they know it. LOL</p>

<p>And, you should read the pm I sent you.</p>

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<p>hehehe, yeah, Bridgette LOVES sean. One time he was wearing his ETS uniform and she said after he left "oh damn, he looked so handsooooome" It was hilarious!! I love her too, she's so nice. One time I lost my keys and she helped me look for them for like 20 m inutes. I only get omelets when she's the chef because Ms. Grace, the other omelet chef is eeevil!! (she yells at you like crazy...especially at anyone who asks for less than a cup of butter in the pan.) </p>

<p>and yeah, lol :), I just said that because some of my comments have been misunderstood...but that happens a lot when no one can tell what tone you're writing with. (I'm reffering to my analogy "jokes" ) (and the quotations marks are there because they really weren't funny...and really weren't meant to be :))</p>

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<p>jmmom: There are TA's! What I meant was there are no TA receciation sessions like that tour guide was saying.</p>

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<p>So here is the the rest of my "sources" so to speak on my information</p>

<p>The upper level ones -- the good ones -- don't want to teach. "</p>

<p>A lot of the science teachers are just into research, or just teach graduate students. Dr. Mullin, a great teacher whom I had for my colloquia, comes to mind. </p>

<p>" One thing tha'ts great about honors courses -- if they are ever taught, that is -- is that the teachers generally want to teach them. I took a honors colloquia with 5 great teachers." </p>

<p>This is a positive statement, so I'm sure you think it is an objective one....</p>

<p>"Also, other intro classes tend to be big, or always lecture format. My women's studies intro class had more than 40 people. We luckily had an awesome teacher who made it all discussion. We moved all the desks around into a big circle and talked. It was great, but just awkward because of hte size. YOu had to talk loudly!"</p>

<p>Um, is comment of validity even necessary..? I kind of, how do they say, took this class...</p>

<p>If you have any other questions as to the objectivity and or validity of my statements, I will gladly provide you with my reasoning.</p>