<p>My DD has been accepted a couple of selective universities (Georgetown Kenyon) with little chance of $$$ and a couple of honors programs (with some $$$) at not quite as selective places (Elon, Depauw) . . . A good dilemma to have, but a dilemma nonetheless. . . Maybe graduate school in her future, maybe not. . Any insights into whether a degree from a fancy sexy place everyone has heard of trumps a honors degree from a somewhat less well-known school on the grad school milieu? The happiness/good fit factor will, of course, control, but am interested in how others have forded this stream. . .</p>
<p>I dont think it is so much the “Honors” label per se, but the opportunities to work closely with professors, the opporunity to register early (thus making certain her transcript is as impressive as she wants), etc. I would ask exactly what the honors program entails. It may also have its own dorm, which will likely keep her away from the hard core party crowd – which is luck of the draw how valuable that is.</p>
<p>At Georgetown you are likely to learn about a decision from someone who was there when it was made. Does that make a difference? As I evaluate the differences between the kids who went the selective route versus the nice happy school route, I would say that makes a big difference. That is a generalization, but it can be backed up. What I have seen is this: when you are talking about a subject such as Japanese diplomacy and you have the guy who directed that policy standing in the room, there aren’t other fellows like him that could be doing the same thing at another school. Oh, they can get some very learned scholars. However, they aren’t the person who had to make the call who can say why it was made. I have my store of stories, but I would like to hear those of other people. I think we would all benefit if those that knew the stories would offer them up.</p>
<p>When we talk about honors programs here at CC, we’re usually referring to those at massive state universities.</p>
<p>I’m not sure that an honors program at a smaller school like Elon of Depauw would have as much to offer. I would definitely check out the details of the programs at these schools.</p>
<p>Georgetown is, as someone else in this thread implied, a world-class university. On the other hand, it is fairly large, and your daughter’s tastes seem to run to smaller schools. So although I know quite a few kids who would have killed to get into Georgetown (we live in Maryland, so kids are familiar with Georgetown and it is often their dream school), it might not be the best choice for someone who prefers a smaller, more intimate academic setting.</p>
<p>When getting into graduate school many things matter. A pretigious school that isn’t particularly strong in her area of interest might not look as good as a well known department at a less prestigious school.</p>
<p>My son could go to a big prestige school but may choose a large state university because it has one of the top departments in the country for his major. </p>
<p>Grad schools know these things. I agree that who teaches you matters…but it doesn’t matter if you had a nobel prize winner teach you chemistry when your major was philosophy and that department is weak. In the SMALL world of academia, it’s who you know and where you were educated in relation to your major.</p>
<p>Is the money offered at Elon and Depauw considerable? Are you able to pay the full amount at Georgetown or Kenyon? I would think that the difference in price between these schools, and your ability to pay, would be important in this choice.</p>
<p>Our son got a full scholarship to a state University honors program that is very good in his field. He also got into an Ivy, at a cost, first year, of $26,000 (he had some savings bonds). This was before recent “middle class initiatives.” (The final year, he paid only $4,000). I wanted him to go to the state U., and he was immune to the prestige thing, but all the teachers in his high school were all over him, saying noone from his school had ever gotten in, etc. etc. and he decided to go to the Ivy. He understood that he would have to work a lot and help a lot in paying for it, since we did not have that much money.</p>
<p>I would have to say that I can now see that he made a good decision. He has absolutely loved it, and the job opportunities that he has gotten through the school, during the school year, and winter, spring, summer breaks, have made it possible for him to pay for it! He also has a great job lined up after he graduates, which will more than make up what he paid for 4 years, in one year of work.</p>
<p>He could have had the same success at the state U. Lots of people do. But he has loved his major department and classes where he is, and has been really really happy in every way. He has also met friends from all over the world and the US, which would also happen at the state U. but to a lesser degree.</p>
<p>I know your choice is less stark financially (as opposed to free versus $26,000 for us) and also academically (all the schools you mention are great). The point I am trying to make is that if money is an issue going in, it can often become a non-issue if the student is in the right place. So paying a little extra for the right place can end up being financially advantageous.</p>
<p>My post is only dealing with the money side, but there are also obvious arguments for choosing the place that most fits the student in all other ways, too- as long as it is financially possible.</p>
<p>If it is not financially possible, then it is also true that a motivated kid can make a wonderful experience happen absolutely anywhere. My son would have done that at the state U, and, once away from those teachers at the high school (!), would never have looked back. And your son is choosing between 4 really wonderful private schools, not a large state U.</p>
<p>I have no information on elite colleges, D is very satisfied with academics in her Honors program. She does not feel that she needs to be more challenged. She has a lot of Merit $$. D graduated #1 in her class and never applied to any elite colleges. But each family is defferent and school name might be an important factor for some.</p>
<p>In the situation described, I’d go with the more selective university, knowing that its reputation value and difference in educational quality is worth the out-of-pocket cost difference.</p>
<p>My own limited experience involves two nearby schools, San Diego State University and UCSD, that are far apart on the prestige scale. Anyway, my experience was that prestige and educational quality, that is the quality of classroom instruction, were inversely related between these two schools.</p>
<p>Recently I heard from a relative who is a senior executive at Qualcomm that he likes to hire EEs from San Diego State. He said that they really know how to work and they work like they have something to prove.</p>
<p>Prestige has its price.</p>
<p>I’'ll be politically incorrect here. </p>
<p>My anecdotal experience is that girls and boys act differently in this situation and the only study I’ve ever seen on the subject said the same thing. </p>
<p>College isn’t just about academics. And reality is that at most colleges, particularly LACs, being among the smartest girls on campus is quite different socially than being among the smartest boys on campus.</p>
<p>Now, I suspect that it’s less of a problem at a large state school because even if only 5% of your class is your academic equal, that’s still a fairly good size group of people. But at a LAC? In Greencastle, Indiana? </p>
<p>While I don’t think anyone should get married before finishing college, if it were my D, I’d like her to have a chance to have a romance with a young man who is her intellectual equal. As a frosh, she’ll have a few sophs, juniors and seniors to date, but by junior and senior year, the eligible pool is going to be mighty small. </p>
<p>Plus, reality is that for many people, their social network their first few years out of college is still sort of determined by the college they attended. DePauw has a very strong alumni network, but from what I know of it, it’s geared more towards people who want to go into business. </p>
<p>Additionally, DePauw is “Greek central.” How does your D feel about joining a sorority? If she has any doubts, DePauw is NOT a good place to go. And, do a search for the thread about the girl who didn’t get into any sororities. Her mom posted about her problems.</p>
<p>jonri,
However big school is, Honors classes are usually very small, most likely they are smaller than classes at prestigious school (under 20). We are comparing Honors at state school to elite. And yes, sorority has been awesome experience for my D, more opportunities than she imagined, and that combined with tiny Honors classes at large state school. And star students continue being stars and treated respectively, not like another face in a crowd.</p>
<p>^ Actually, the OP is comparing Georgetown/Kenyon to honors at Elon/Depauw; neither of the latter are large state schools. Private school honors programs tend to be more extraneous, although still valuable.</p>
<p>I can’t imagine that an honors program at Elon would have much to offer in comparison to Georgetown. The school is simply too small to maintain separate programs in the way that a place like Pitt or the University of Michigan might.</p>
<p>Again, it is just simple cost / benefit analysis, unless a kid have unlimited resources and can go to any school his heart desires. Also, keep in mind that the very top, star students will rip tremendous benefits at any place, no matter ranking / school name / prestige. They will find very challenging and enriching classes and choose to be surrounded by intellectually stimulating friends and have an awesome overall college experience at any place just because of who they are not because of the school that they are attending.</p>
<p>MiamiDAP, unless a kid can take ONLY honors courses s/he is going to be in classes that are pitched to the level of the typical student at the school. It’s a simple fact. In some fields it may make less difference. In the humanities, for example, it makes a HUGE difference.</p>
<p>^^
Consolation, it’s true that the level of student in the class makes a huge difference in the humanities. But some honors programs address that by placing honors students in higher level classes, even as early as freshman year.</p>
<p>You have to check what exactly the “honors program” entails at the given schools.</p>
<p>Only you can decide how much money you can spend, but I agree with Talkenadult that “In the situation described, I’d go with the more selective university, knowing that its reputation value and difference in educational quality is worth the out-of-pocket cost difference.”</p>
<p>Also if “gradschool in the future” is a PhD program of any sort, it will be fully funded (or not worth attending), so don’t worry about that for now.</p>
<p>I agree that Honors is different from school to school and major is important. D’s school accepted only top 200 into Honors, and they were very top caliber kids, mostly valedictorians from private schools. And if you talking pre-med than most people agree that GPA and MCAT score are the most important stats, undergrad. school name is not that important.</p>
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<p>That might help, but if you are talking about a gifted student, skipping introductory classes is not going to solve the problem, and certainly not for long. What ar they going to do after freshman or sophomore year?</p>
<p>MiamiDAP, you seem unwilling to admit that it is not just the “name” of the school: it is the caliber of the students. Your D is apparently in a science honors program of some kind that fulfills her needs at a great price: good for her. If she were not pre-med but interested in studying literature or philosophy, and had to sit in classes where she was bored out of her skull by the level of discussion, it would be another matter entirely.</p>
<p>^ Yep, agree entirely.</p>