Hooks for the Ivies

Parents Forum
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<p>I'm not trying to infringe on your forum or anything, but I wanted actual adult advice on this, particularly from those who have expertise in the admissions of the highly selective schools. Thanks in advance.</p>

<p>First off, I will tell you that my goal since starting public school in sixth grade (I was homeschooled up until then) has been to graduate valedictorian and attend Harvard. Granted, Harvard isn't the be-all-end-all, but acceptance would be nice. Unfortunately for my chances, I have very few EC's to speak of because I pursue my own interests and do things to achieve very specific goals. I am valedictorian of a class of 220-some kids, but that doesn't seem to tout much anymore.</p>

<p>So with my dismal EC's, I wondered if I even have a hook to speak of, either. </p>

<p>national spelling bee twice in middle school</p>

<p>a rural high school enrolling less than 1000
from a brain-drain state where SAT average narrowly hugs the national average or drops lower and 50% of students fail one or both portions of the ISTEP+</p>

<p>4-H for seven years--I train my own horse, too</p>

<p>3rd generation Ukrainian (great-grands were immigrants to Detroit area</p>

<p>work w/out pay at local veterinarians office an average of four hours/week</p>

<p>will participate in summer chemistry research at ball state university for pay
(4 weeks of 36 hours/week)</p>

<p>have donated hair to Locks of Love twice since eighth grade (LOL makes real hair wigs for people under 18 with medical hair loss); that's 20" of my hair! :D</p>

<p>It may also be relevant that grads from my school typically don't attend prestigious colleges (mostly purdue, IU); Notre Dame is our Harvard.</p>

<p>I know that I probably sound like just one more high-schooler looking for flattery, but I'm simply trying to save myself the application fee if I don't have a shot in H-E- double-hockeysticks:P</p>

<p>If any of that seems like a hook that stands a chance, will you let me know?</p>

<p>Thanks for your time,</p>

<p>Erin-Michelle</p>

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<p>What are your SAT scores and GPA?</p>

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<p>Well Erin-Michelle, I think you have the absolutely perfect hook and deserve to get into every single school you apply to, but maybe I feel that way because I have a horse too (do you do pony club?) and I also do 4-H. I guess that makes me a tad prejudice!</p>

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<p>Sorry, no hook there. If you can get you SAT in the 2200+ range with decent SAT IIs, it's probably worth the application fee. You'll need a great essay too.</p>

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<p>Being from a rural, midwestern background is a big plus since Harvard doesn't get very many rural applicants. For that reason, 4-H also will make you stand out -- particularly if you hold an office, are doing some major projects, etc. with it.</p>

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<p>Erin-Michelle, tell us a little more about yourself. What are your SAT/ACT scores? SAT II's? What has your class schedule been in high school? How many honors and AP classes? Any college classes? Any outstanding awards? Did your parents go to college? Where? Do you work on a family farm? What state are you from? What do you want to major in?</p>

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<p>I think farms are pretty attractive to the Ivy League, although you'll be competing against all the other genius farmhands.</p>

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<p>Write a gritty essay with lots of agricultural, equestrian dialect that they fall in love with.</p>

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<p>Yes! Being from one of the most backward states in the union is finally paying off!:D My GPA is an 11.9634 on a 12.0 scale (they said something about it being easier to convert when we changed from a 6.0 scale; why they didn't go to 4.0 is beyond me). Basically what that means is that I have only had two "As" on my semester averages in three years of high school. I have taken the most difficult course load that I can and am also "tracking;" that is, I am concentrating on the sciences and have avoided history and the arts like the plague. I'm glad that the Ivies claim to take course offerings into account because my school only offers one AP course (calc.) on a regular basis, though I'm part of a group of six that pushed through an AP chem class for next year.</p>

<p>I have not taken the SAT IIs at all. My ACT from my freshman year is a 31 composite, but I just retook it yesterday. My SAT I from last fall was a 1400: 740V, 660M (darn that quantitative comparison:D ), and I retook that last Saturday.</p>

<p>I forgot to mention earlier, too, that I am going to Hoosier Girls State next week; it is the precursor to Girls/Boys Nation.</p>

<p>Thanks all of you,</p>

<p>Erin-Michelle</p>

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<p>Erin, your GPA equivalent is 3.98 which is quite good (my D's school also uses this 12 point system...to get your equivalent, divide by 3). Your SAT and ACT scores are a bit low, however, and you could bring them up with some concentrated work (see xiggi prep thread). Congrats on getting your
AP Chem class through! It shows your leadership and willingness to take on a challenge. Do well on this and your AP calculus course. Make sure you have met the minimum class requirements for each school to which you plan to apply (enough history, english, other languages, etc.) You do need to take 3 SAT II tests as early as possible (Harvard requires 3) which won't be until October. Unfortunately, you'll need to take all 3 then if you plan to apply EA. If financial aid is not needed, apply EA. If you will need financial aid you will need to wait til RD and can take some SAT II's in November. </p>

<p>If you can, check out Harry Bauld's or Mason's book on writing the college essays from your guidance counselor or library. It will help you put together a winning essay. Get those standardized test scores up, take those SAT II's, and good luck! BTW, I went to Buckeye Girl's State when I was in high school and had a great time. Congrats!</p>

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<p>An essay about training your own horse could be a great "hook", IMHO. Since they've eliminated the quantitative comparison from the new SAT you've probably raised your math score on your most recent test, if that's the part you had most trouble with. Wait until you get the scores back and then decide whether you should retake (but don't take it more than three times). Of course there are no guarantees, but I think you have a great chance. :)</p>

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<p>EA is not binding; why would financial be an issue?</p>

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<p>
[quote]
but I think you have a great chance.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'm sorry to be the bearer of cold water, but I think it is doing Erin-Michelle a big disservice to tell her that she has a "great chance" at Harvard.</p>

<p>Based on what she has told us, I would put schools like Dartmouth, Brown, Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, and WashU-Stl in the "farthest plausible reach" category on her college list. Then, slot in matches and safeties below that tier of selectivity. I see virtually no chance of Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT. She'll be mid-pack in the applicant pool academically and mid-pack needs something that really stands out (athlete, rich daddy, URM, exceptional EC, etc.)</p>

<p>Her class-rank is her strongest suit. SATs a bit low. I would play up the farm-girl angle, but the ECs are not going to be a big "tip".</p>

<p>I also question picking a college in the sixth grade. I would ask, "what is it, specifically, that you like about Harvard?" Is it the big-city campus? The relatively large size? The emphasis on ECs? The "you're on your own" assertiveness required to really get the most of 4 years, there? In other words, have you really investigated colleges or is Harvard just some romaticized ideal in your mind?</p>

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<p>interesteddad: By that I meant "good enough chance for it not to be a total waste", which is what she was asking. I'm sorry if that didn't come across. FWIW, I completely agree with your last paragraph.</p>

<p>edit: Rereading my post, I realize that it was phrased too optimistically. Valedictorians are dime-a-dozen in Harvard's applicant pool, and for the average 'bright, well-rounded kid' there really is no way of determining who will get in. However, while I really don't suggest you set your heart on Harvard as your first choice school (because after all, this is a school that rejects 90% of its applicants) I see no wrong in sending off an application 'just because' as long as you keep a realistic perspective.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I see no wrong in sending off an application 'just because' as long as you keep a realistic perspective.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>People do need to understand that there is a downside risk to the "what the heck, maybe I'll win the lottery" approach and we've seen that risk play out here this year. When kids are encouraged to miscalibrate their college lists, they sometimes get so mentally focused on the impossible dream schools that they end up treating their "plausible reach" and "solid match" schools like an afterthought. This can have dire consequences.</p>

<p>I think it's really poor advice to encourage Erin-Michele about her prospects for Harvard admissions. She has much less than a 1 in 10 chance. What she should do is build a real college list, with schools that she can actually get into, chosen on the basis of real research. Once that list is done, and she's put together serious applications for those schools, then she can put together a "wing and a prayer" app for Harvard. No problem. But, you really have to to view it as a "wing and prayer" and not let it detract from your real college list.</p>

<p>But, she's sitting there looking for people to tell her that she has a shot at Harvard when the reality is that she probably doesn't. I'm not being mean...it's the same advice I had for my own daughter. Sure, there are the exceptions that prove the rule, but to me "a shot at Harvard" means that you can identify a specific aspect of the application that would propel that app out of the pack. I can't identify that aspect in Erin-Michele's description. There's no shame in that. I can't identify that aspect for most of the kids who post "what are my chances at Harvard?" questions here. That's probably why most of them don't get in!</p>

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<p>All great points, interesteddad. I have a feeling I'm too young and idealistic to really be helpful with this one. :o</p>

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<p>As a rural student in the midwest at a school that doesn't send many students to top universities, she does have a shot at Harvard. Harvard wants to attact more students from areas like hers. Most students from rural Indiana are not interested in Harvard and don't have the stats to get in. This is true of even top students. Her stats are good enough that if she were accepted, she could graduate.</p>

<p>Because of where she is, she'll be compared probably with students from similar areas, and their SATs are likely to be comparable to hers (though it would be good if she could get hers a bit higher).</p>

<p>It also sounds like she's got some in depth ECs with Girl's State and her raising horses. It's not that easy to have school and community-based ECs when one is in a rural community, so she would not be expected to have the kind of activities that someone would who lives in a place like NYC.</p>

<p>If she's very interested in going to a top university, she might want to focus on universities in cities since many rural students specifically do not want to live in cities. Columbia, Barnard, University of Penn., Brown might be the best for Ivy (and Seven Sisters) schools. They all would be reach schools.</p>

<p>Perhaps Macalester, BU and George Washington could be match schools. </p>

<p>She also, though, needs to ask her parents about finances because some of these schools do not give financial aid up to the level of financial need. If finances are a concern, she also should take a very close look at the colleges' web page info about financial aid and scholarships.</p>

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<p>Oh dear; this has been blown totally out of proportion. I did not mean to start an argument, nor was I looking for hand-holding or someone to reassure me that I am not a dime-a-dozen (ironically, that was the theme for the final quarter in one of my classes this year). In Harvard admission officer eyes, I am probably more like a nickel a dozen. All I wanted to know was whether it was worth the admission fee or if there was ANYTHING about me or my life that would attract attention.</p>

<p>interesteddad: I am trying very hard to avoid adopting the attitude that schools like Purdue are an afterthought. Mind you, it is difficult for anyone to maintain a humble attitude with regard to the schools where admission is not an issue. I am aware that a goal set in sixth grade is a somewhat idealistic one and a rather ill-advised pursuit when based on simple blind faith. I am not a selfless humanitarian or an absolute genius, but, even for where I live, my interests are not mainstream. I understand that I don't have a shot in the dark of being accepted, but as abitrary as life can be sometimes, I am willing to take the chance and go with whatever is meant to be.</p>

<p>quiltguru: unless you are still curious about my stats, etc., I will refrain from posting them because they seem to be inconsequential. Also, a GPA on a 12.0 scale is not quite so simple to convert, and that is why students from schools like mine and your D's tend to be at a disadvantage; our GPAs are much higher than they appear when colleges employ the simple conversion technique. I have never earned a grade below an "A," so my GPA on a 4.0 scale would be a 4.0, unweighted. But like you said, the simple conversion would imply that I had earned an A- or B somewhere along the way. For the conversion to be accurate, colleges actually have to look at the letter grades on the transcript and recalculate the GPA on the new scale.</p>

<p>northstarmom: Thank you especially for your comments. My main motivation in applying to schools like the Ivies lies in the opportunity I have to capitalize on living in the Midwest.</p>

<p>Thanks to all of you,</p>

<p>Erin-Michelle</p>

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<p>I'm glad that Northstarmom (Harvard interviewer) is supporting your applying to Harvard. Your lifestyle and interests are not prevalent in their applicant pool. I think your essay, which you can of course use for many other aps, is the key...find some aspect of your experience that will highlight this uniqueness---really spend time on the essay, showi it to someone who can give you good writing feedback.</p>

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<p>Erin, to be honest, I don't think you'll be happy at Harvard. Maybe I'm mistaken, but your background and the "ishorsecrazy" part of your name makes me think that you will find colleges with strong equestrian programs to be a better "fit". Do you know that you can actually take your horse with you to some colleges? </p>

<p>I understand that you may want to expand your horizons, but I think that its a mistake to make a college choice based on goals you set for yourself in the 6th grade. Take the time to learn more about colleges and what they offer. Colleges really do like students who have demonstrated a "passion" -- but it also works better if the passion is something that is a good "fit" for the college. If you really have your heart set on an Ivy, I'd suggest that you look at Cornell - unless getting an urban living experience is also important to you. I think that with your grades and background you'd have a great chance of getting into Cornell -- Cornell has a very strong equestrian team and a veterinary college, so even if you don't ride competively, you know that at least is a horse-friendly campus. </p>

<p>Whether you have a chance at Harvard or not is beside the point. I realize that you may feel you are ready for a change with college, and be more than ready to make horses a thing of the past -- but you never really said what you are interested in studying in your original post. What shines through your personal resume is "horses + 4H + work in veterinary clinic" -- sounds like pre-vet. If you aren't going down that road as a career path, then you will need to figure out how to make your college application project something different about you. Because that is what makes an application stand out -- the "tag" that the ad com gives you on top of grades & test scores.</p>

<p>I do think that coming from a farm in the midwest is an advantage for college admissions at many elite east coast universities, including some of the Ivies -- but I don't think it works that way for Harvard. Harvard is just one college that is so well known that it gets plenty of apps from all over the country and all over the globe. </p>

<p>I may be very wrong and I don't want to discourage you from following a dream -- but I just hope that you will spend the time to look seriously at what other colleges have to offer.</p>