<p>My D's passion is Equestrian. It's a huge commitment in every way, but she loves it and wants to pursue it. Based on academics, I think she has a shot at Yale, my alma mater, but it's her choice and I think she wants to go to a school with great academics and an equestrian team. She discovered that Yale has a nice club team, but also heard that it's short of money because it's not NCAA. If she got in, her trying to work with others to build it up would be a worthy activity, but who knows if that's realistic? Just wondering, are there other great schools academically with NCAA riding, or really good club teams. (She does jumping, but not steeplechase racing.)</p>
<p>Mensa, you need to relax. Seriously. You've decided you want to go to an Ivy. That's fine. But you need to get away from the whole notion of "tricking" them into accepting you. Think about how many people apply to, say, Harvard, with a 1500. I'd be willing to bet that between five and ten thousand Harvard applicants this year will have a 1500. Most of them are also going to have a 3.8+. Does that mean that Harvard should accept 10,000 people? Of course not. Harvard wouldn't be Harvard if it did that. Thus, there need to be other ways of differentiating applicants, and looking at ECs is one of them. It isn't like the Ivies look at ECs like this magical thing that will or will not get you in. There are other ways of being outstanding than just getting good grades, and ECs represent that. I mean, yes, not everyone is going climb Mount Kilimanjaro or discover a new element, but I think you would agree that someone that could do that while in high school would probably be a good candidate to go to the Ivies. Of course that doesn't mean that the application process is 100% fair. There's plenty of things to complain about, this just isn't one of them. If you want to complain, complain about the facts that idiots can get recruited by these schools to play sports when otherwise they wouldn't have had a chance, or about legacies or other things like that. But, as a current Ivy League student, let me tell you first hand that most of the people that I know have both high SATs AND some outstanding ECs. That's just the way it works nowadays. Your argument here makes you appear short-sighted, petty, and much less intelligent that you make yourself out to be. You may talk about how someone would rather talk to a person that is genuinely smart rather than a lacrosse player or a guy that makes giant foil balls (?), but I am positive that anyone who reads through this thread would rather talk to one of them than to you.</p>
<p>
[quote]
but I am positive that anyone who reads through this thread would rather talk to one of them than to you.
[/quote]
You're talking to me....and that's good stuff you say in many ways.</p>
<p>boxmaker,</p>
<p>There's something fishy here.</p>
<p>How could it possibly work against a kid to be excellent at ANYTHING? Are they worried that the travel & time committments of ths sport are so great it would impact her school performance? That doesn't seem likely if she's getting great grades now. Who has expressed "concern" to you? Or was your D's GC the one who heard about the school's "concern?" </p>
<p>I don't know what to make of your Ds situation but it does not make sense to me as you have outlined it. How can excellence in an EC take you downhill unless you are a professional assassin or card counter?</p>
<p>Northstar and SBMom --</p>
<p>My daughter's sport is NOT NCAA and therefore there are NO American college teams other her discipline is huge in Europe, Canada and Eastern Europe. I spoke directly with an "Admissions Counselor" at the school. I actually called to find out whether my daughter could live at home since our house is equidistant to her training facility and the LAC. That is how the subject came up. I was astounded at the response, to be honest. The school slipped from first to last place in my daughter's estimation because of that response which she thought was extremely short-sighted. It is only on her list now because she could still train and she truly loves this sport. She knows she will have to give it up if she goes elsewhere but is open to trying new sports. (She tried boot hockey for the first time and thought it was great fun and has always wanted to try crew.) By the way, her stats: IB diploma candidate, 3.8 unweighted GPA, 4.2 weighted GPA, 7 on one IB test and 6 on the other (both SL, junior year) and 30 ACT. The latter is a bit low but she has ADHD and doesn't test as well as her capabilities. Again, this LAC holds her national ranking against her because her focus would not be completely on school-related activities! (Frankly, I hope she goes to the local U and tries for an Olympic berth in four years!)</p>
<p>You sure she doesn't want to switch to a sport that is an NCAA sport? I bet she would be very welcome at a school like Harvard.</p>
<p>Is her sport team handball? Feel free to PM me if the answer is "yes." My h has played and referred the sport at a national level.</p>
<p>mensa, my personal feeling is that since more and more kids, like yourself, are doing activities just to look good for college, the EC thing is becoming less important overall (unless you have something extraordinary and long-term, which you apparently do not.) </p>
<p>you can see this trend in the MIT application, which changed their app and now focuses on questions like what do you simply because you enjoy it (more interesting to talk about a "non-official" EC), what's your world about, what are your values. they would rather read interesting, sensitive responses to these questions than see a list of eight billion ECs which say virtually nothing about your personality or your insights into the world around you. i went to a presentation given by the MIT dean of admissions, and she basically said they were really trying to grasp the big picture when looking at apps, and were moving away from this fixation on ECs. MIT is leading the way in this shift, and more will quickly follow.</p>
<p>"are there other great schools academically with NCAA riding, or really good club teams. (She does jumping, but not steeplechase racing.)"</p>
<p>Yaledad: Williams has a well funded club team (and it's a great environment for riding.)</p>
<p>"Meanwhile, there are colleges that use stats as their main way of selecting students. Instead of wasting your time in a futile effort to get HPYS to change their standards, simply go to a place like CalTech, where the selection process favors students like you, and the adcoms think like you do."</p>
<p>I'd have to disagree with this. Caltech has one of the hardest applications to complete and look for very creative people. When I applied to Stanford and MIT, they had some great questions on there that had little to do with academics but what you did in your spare time, however Caltech takes the crown. It had a triangle and in that triangle you could fill it up with whatever you want, and i think that shows great creativity and thinking outside the box. </p>
<p>On paper Caltech may seem like it focuses completly on merit, becauseabout 95% of there class is in the top 10%, while at alot of ivies its at around 85-90%. Also caltech has the highest SAT score range, but I believe this comes heavily from the fact that caltech (put plainly) sucks at athletics. Its division III and dosn't look for people who are good at sports. While at alot of top schools about 15-20% of the admitted class were recruited athletes. ALso put URMs (Under-represented minorities) are present in both schools. It's a myth that they are not at the same level as the other students. On paper you see that there is a 50% admit rate for minorities into Darthmouth in 1999-2000ish year. Well alot of these kids are self-selected. It's like underrated schools like NOrthwestern and University of Chicago, you see a high admit rate (30-40%) and assume that these people are not the same quality, however the admit class is as strong as those in ivies, but people who apply to these schools have more common sense. Also, back to the hook topic, alot of people always talk about being a URM is a hook. My poli sci teacher at stanford had a great point, if anything the constant talking aobut how a URM got into a school simply because they are a URM puts doubt into that students mind. Later on they question themselves and wonder, "DiD I get into this school, just because I was black or hispanic?"
-lol, i still suck at spelling :</p>
<p>Anthony,
I read in a college guide that one year, every freshman at CalTech had scored an 800 on one of the SAT II math tests. </p>
<p>I also know that typically, at most CalTech accepts only about 6 African Americans a year (with a yield of 0-2). I have read that the reason is because CalTech is very focused on scores.</p>
<p>While creativity is important, scores also are extremely important to that school.</p>
<p>IMO URMs should not doubt their appropriateness for the elite schools that they attend any more than should: legacies, people from underrepresented states and regions, students who are low income or whose parents didn't attend college; students coming from feeder schools; offspring of large donors or potential large donors; students who are celebrities' kids or world class athletes; students who are the offspring of elite colleges' faculty members (I saw an interesting article recently that said that faculty kids get a big tip at elite colleges).</p>
<p>Northstarmom, you're probably right that every kid had a 800 on their SAT II math score, but then again, Caltech does specialize heavily in the math and science area, so its expected that these applicants are pretty good at math.</p>
<p>Also, yes its true that about 6% of the kids at caltech are african american, however keep in mind that Caltech is division III athletics. Harvard is division I and only 8% of the kids are black. Now dont get me wrong, I'm not saying that african americans come to top schools because they are good athletes, but (general statement) alot of athletes are technically black.</p>
<p>Anthony,
In 2003, according to a Washington Post article, only 72 African Americans got a 1500 or higher on the SAT I. African Americans also are very underrepresented when it comes to taking higher level math and science courses. As a result, I would imagine that if CalTech decides to accept only students who score 800 on one of the math SAT IIs, the amount of African Americans who would qualify for admission probably would be less than 20 in the country, and most would be creamed off by places like HPYS, and probably would have no interest in applying to CalTech, which has next to no African American students or faculty members.</p>
<p>I doubt that the lack of sports would be a big factor in the low numbers of black students, though your hypothesis still could be true.</p>
<p>Northstarmom: are coming from underrepresented areas and having parents with low income/no college really factors (other than the UCs, which I know take background in to account, but have done away with AA) considered by adcoms? I was always under the impression that these things weren't really considered that much, unless the student rose from truly adverse conditions (e.g. under the poverty line).</p>
<p>
[quote]
In 2003, according to a Washington Post article, only 72 African Americans got a 1500 or higher on the SAT I.
[/quote]
Are you sure?? No way it could be that few.</p>
<p>"are coming from underrepresented areas and having parents with low income/no college really factors (other than the UCs, which I know take background in to account, but have done away with AA) considered by adcoms?"</p>
<p>Yes. This particularly is true when it comes to the elite colleges that are need blind when it comes to admission, and that also guarantee financial aid up to ones' level of financial need. I am referring to places like HPYS. Harvard and Princeton particularly are interested now in attracting low income, first generation college, applicants and those with blue collar or pink collar parents. Both Harvard and Princeton have excellent financial aid packages (no loans) for applicants who, I think, come from families making $40k or under a year.</p>
<p>To get in, though, you do need to have an academic background proving that you can handle the work. That would be a minimum 3.0 average in a college prep curriculum and minimum SAT scores of 1200. Of course, as is the case with all applicants to the top colleges, getting in is a longshot, so make sure you have back-ups.</p>
<p>but keep in mind more people score 800 on the math portion than the verbal portion. Let's say an african american scored a 650 verbal, which is still a great score, then they would not be included in that survey. Of the 72, if about 12 of them go to caltech a year, that is not very unportioned, since caltech is one of the best schools in this nation. The only other school which focuses alot on math is MIT and they could of taken the other perfect scorers. Also schools that use the academic index, such as Dartsmouth is also only 6% black, with a 2+ or 2- margin every year, identical percent wise to caltech. </p>
<p>Also you stated that they one year everyone scored a perfect SAT II on their math, however what you are comparing is the SAT I, which is a different story. Scoring a perfect on the SAT II is not all that difficult in my opinion.</p>
<p>As for what mensa said, that number is probably true. I remember reading that only 600 african americans scored over 1200 in one year.</p>
<p>Thank you all very much for your interest in my child. However, to keep this focused on Mensa's concerns, my point was that what you think may be a "hook" could backfire. Mensa should find something that provides personal satisfaction and perhaps, a sense of accomplishment outside of formal schoolwork. There's more to life than college admissions and it would be a shame to select an EC for only that purpose -- especially since any pursuit could backfire. (What if someone with that particular "hook" applies a year earlier to the college of your dreams?)</p>
<p>"but keep in mind more people score 800 on the math portion than the verbal portion. "</p>
<p>The above is because of immigrants and their children, particularly Asians who may have advanced degrees in the sciences or math. Their kids get major help with math at home, and also take the most rigorous math courses in high schools. </p>
<p>That's not the case with African Americans. While African immigrants have similar education backgrounds as Asians, there aren't enough of them to lead to large numbers of black students scoring extremely well on the SAT math tests and subtests. Other black students lag behind most other groups in taking advanced math courses and in doing well in them as measured by getting scores of 3 or higher on the AP. </p>
<p>Here's info about the racial/ethnic composition of American students taking AP math and physics tests in 2001:
" The study also revealed a different aspect of the ethnic achievement gap: virtually no blacks or Hispanics took either AP test. The calculus group contained just 1% black and 3% Hispanic students. Seventy-two percent were whites, and 21% were A s i a n s / Pacific Islanders. The physics group was made up of 1% blacks, 4% Hispanics, 66% whites, and 26% Asians/Pacific Islanders. In both groups, 4% of the students checked other.' <a href="http://www.america-tomorrow.com/bracey/EDDRA/bracey11.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.america-tomorrow.com/bracey/EDDRA/bracey11.htm</a></p>
<p>According to the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education, only 800 to 838, or about 1 percent, of the 122,684 black students who took the 2002 SATs scored above 700 on either the mathematics or verbal sections of the test.</p>
<p>According to the College Board, on the 2003 SAT I, the 98th percentile for both v and m scores for African Americans was a 650. A 750 was already the 99+ percentile for them. The number of African Americans who took the SAT I was 125,657.</p>
<p>By comparison, the 98th percentile for Asians was between 750 and 800 v, and for Asians, an 800 m score was only the 97th percentile. The number of Asians taking the test was 100,970. For whites, a 750 was the 98th percentile for both v, m, and 670,260 took the test.</p>
<p>In 2003, according to the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education, only 543 blacks in the US scored a 3 or higher on the Calculus B AP exam. Only 952 black students took that exam. On the Calculus A exam, 6, 678 black students took it, 2,447 passed the exam with a 3 or higher. <a href="http://www.jbhe.com/features/44_advanced_placement.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.jbhe.com/features/44_advanced_placement.html</a></p>
<p>Anyways as you stated earlier, one year you saw everyone who got into caltech had a perfect on the SAT II. Again you are bring up the SAT I. So if only about 600 students that were black scored over 750 on the math (.5 of a percent) that is still about 600 students and again caltech only accepts a dozen or so. Also 543 blacks scored a 3 or higher (which means you got all the basic concepts) in Calculus II caltech only needs about a dozen or so a year :P</p>
<p>Even though Caltech has the highest 25-75 SAT range, according to Princeton Review it is 3rd hardest to get into:
<a href="http://www.princetonreview.com/college/research/rankings/rankingDetails.asp?categoryID=1&topicID=10%5B/url%5D">http://www.princetonreview.com/college/research/rankings/rankingDetails.asp?categoryID=1&topicID=10</a>
which means, that SAT's can't be that dominant.</p>
<p>
[quote]
According to the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education, only 800 to 838, or about 1 percent, of the 122,684 black students who took the 2002 SATs scored above 700 on either the mathematics or verbal sections of the test. According to the College Board, on the 2003 SAT I, the 98th percentile for both v and m scores for African Americans was a 650. A 750 was already the 99+ percentile for them. The number of African Americans who took the SAT I was 125,657.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Yet, while racial preferences are given on the basis of skin color, few URMs at top schools are descendants of American slaves. In other words, the schools are racial bean-counting, rather than looking for truly disadvantaged blacks. The fact is, if you're a really smart AF-Amer who has really suffered from bad scools, the debilitations tracing back to the hideous effects of slavery, a middle class black kid whose parents came here from the Islands a decade or two ago is getting your place at Harvard and Yale. It's sad that so little afffirmative action truly benefits the people who are descended from America's original sin, slavery/</p>