horrors of o-chem

Parents Forum
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<p>My D has been sweating bullets and tearing out her hair over o-chem this semester. She has a solid B going into her final, but was trying so hard to get an A. She has never studied so hard for a class in her life. She is planning to apply to med school, and my doctor brother-in-law told her you must get an A in o-chem or you won't get in, period. I find that hard to believe, but she is demoralized by it. Does anyone have any recent experience within their families on this? O-chem II looms next semester.</p>

<p>My D's lab partner in this class currently has a D and has had to go into counseling and on antidepressants. And she is a chemistry major! The class average is 68 percent going into the final.</p>

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<p>First, there are lots of people in medicine who got a B in Organic Chemistry. (I got a C)
Second, there is a subset of OChem professors who consider it their duty to weed out the premeds. The medical schools know who these people are if they are familiar with the college.
Third, if the average is 68, there has got to be a curve.</p>

<p>There are several colleges where the students take OChem over the summer at another college, because the Prof at their college is trying to weed out the premeds.</p>

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<p>"I find that hard to believe, but she is demoralized by it."</p>

<p>That's the whole point! They NEED to get enough students to drop the pre-med idea, and chances are that if they are demoralized by o-chem, they are more likely to.</p>

<p>Is this a school that makes students go through a pre-med screening committee before they are allowed to apply to med school?</p>

<p>(What school is it?) In my day, at my school, it was freshman bio. Required a Saturday morning 8 a.m. section, and they took attendance (and it counted, though they didn't tell you that in advance.) Winnowed 110 premeds down to 35 (and I wasn't one, I just wanted to study bio, silly me.) School claimed a 95% med school acceptance rate. The reality was, however, that 90-100 of those premeds would have made darn good physicians, and most would have become so had they attended second tier state universities - and they would have had more research and internship opportunities as well.</p>

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<p>I took orgo as a freshman (in a cutthroat freshman-only section at a pre-med factory), and it was absolute Hell. I limped out quite pleased with my C-. The sad part is that I've changed my mind and want to major in Classics instead of Biology, so I didn't need to take it. :(</p>

<p>My [chem major roommate's] advice:
-Study with the model kits; they help
-Get a study group
-Memorize reaction pathways and mechanisms
-Look over homework
-Do practice problems from textbook/workbook
-Study with old exams from previous years, if available</p>

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<p>Thanks, mardad! Yes, there probably will be a curve, but probably not enough to bump my D up to an A. There's hope for her lab partner, though. </p>

<p>Her professor's area of research is in teaching o-chem to college students! He is the better of the two professors at her college. The poor lab partner has the other professor for lecture.</p>

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<p>No, not a college with a pre-med screening committee. It's a third-tier state college but with a good reputation in that state. It's not the flagship state university where the bright science stars go (lucky for my D). Her college only has a few apply to med school each year.</p>

<p>She does have her own model kit and she is very good at memorization, so that should help.</p>

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<p>Anyhow, experience of hard study is a good thing for future docs, don't you think?</p>

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<p>Well, yes, indeed. As I understand it, that is why o-chem is considered so important for premeds because the difficulty is similar to med school (gulp). What a hard row to hoe...</p>

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<p>Bookiemom, at D's school, the last four years running, the class average on the Ochem final has been a range of 25 - 29 correct answers out of 100. Everyone gets an F, then the curve is applied. </p>

<p>D's final in Ochem 2, she told me that when the exam ended, three or four students walked outside, sat down on the curve outside the classroom and began to cry. They were convinced their dreams of med school were over. </p>

<p>D ended up with solid B's, but with very hard work, and with a tutor supplied by the athletic department. That coupled with B's in the rest of the pre-med core - physics, cal and bio - and she no longer believes med school is an option (but she doesn't want to be a doctor any more anyway).</p>

<p>I do believe a B will do it - but - from what (little) I know of med school admissions, it gets very problematic with anything less than A's, unless the MCAT score is stellar. As to Ochem 2, someone recommended to my D that she audit the class for an entire semester first, then take it, because this would make it easier to get the coveted A, but, D didn't do that.</p>

<p>As far as med school, D's school has an entire department exclusively for post-bacc students, the majority of those students being people who have completed their undergrad degrees and are either retaking the hard sciences, or taking further coursework in preparation for med school applications. So, a B or even C in chemistry etc. doesn't have to mean the end of med school aspirations.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the comforting words, latetoschool. I did bring up the idea of a post-bacc program to her, or perhaps she could just retake o-chem as part of a master's program in biology. She did get As in almost all other core premed classes, including physics and calc. She hasn't taken the MCAT yet, so who knows. She is a very determined person, but I hate to see her losing confidence. </p>

<p>I have heard of that auditing first idea in several places here on CC, but she is already a senior and doesn't want to drag this out further.</p>

<p>That is so sad about students crying outside the o-chem II final. I've had my share of the sobbing phone calls. I guess it's the old "what doesn't kill you makes you strong," but golly--there ought to be a better way to teach this subject.</p>

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<p>Bookiemom, re the confidence factor, it will all be fine, I assure you. D took the Ochem I final while in a back brace due to an athletic injury. The team doctors filled her full of some sort of painkillers and some other stuff, and put her in a brace, in order to get her functional for the next competition. In D-1 athletics the product has a limited shelf life so the strategy appears to be to patch the performer up as efficiently as possible with no consideration for long term health impact, so, that meant back brace and I think even steroids. Plus she had a cold at the same time. She told me (later) that walking from her dorm room enroute to the exam location, she sneezed and fell over on the sidewalk and there was some hilarity as fellow students had to help her back up on her feet, on account of limited mobility. Somehow got through that one with a B for the course.</p>

<p>Ochem 2, the athletic department bought her a tutor, and, this tutor was simply awesome. I don't think the B would have happened without the tutor. Very, very difficult to have a courseload of chem, physics, math, plus another class or so related to her other major. But tutors come with their own challenges - one has to organize one's schedule around the tutor's availability, etc. </p>

<p>That was two years ago, and, the Ochem challenge and a few others like it appear to have served to give her incredible self confidence. So I do not think your daughter will lose confidence - I think she may have a few points of self-doubt just prior to the exam, but, I think once she gets through it, and gets some distance from it, the experience will serve as a basis for sustaining high self confidence in years to come, and especially in situations where perhaps career aspirations don't come as easily as hoped, etc. </p>

<p>Is there a better way to teach it? I don't know about that. I think that these tougher challenges are probably solid preparation for some of the challenges that may come later in the work force. I do not like to hear that students are so upset that they cry (and mine tends to become cold, distant and stoic vs. tearfull) but on the other hand, often a career event can be very, very disappointing or surprising and even blatantly unfair, and I think it's better than young men and women can have these sorts of experiences in the rather safe environment that is college, rather than have them for the first time once they're in the work force, and perhaps with a mortage or family to support and other obligations, and where changing strategy or direction isn't an option because of those obligations.</p>

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<p>At the beginning of the course, S's o-chem professor announced to a class of nearly 100 students that he gives only 7 A's, maximum, with the most frequent grade a C. Pre-meds are very happy with B's.</p>

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<p>My husband wanted to be a chemical engineer, so took organic. After getting something dismal on the first test (12? 25? Very low), he stopped making an effort, ended up dropping the class. He took it again and got a C -- and switched to materials engineering.</p>

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<p>Reading this is giving me a big head. . . . I thought o-chem (at cornell many moons ago) was amazingly easy, especially in light of it's reputation.</p>

<p>I would think that one can get admitted to med school with a B in O-chem; however, everyone who is going to apply to medical school (even those with an A in O-chem) needs to have a plan B. My plan B helped me keep my anxiety down in college. (I was lucky that plan A came through.)</p>

<p>The real tavesty here is the there are too few spots in med schools for the number of physcians that the US needs. Thus, we have many MD's from other countries immigrating here to fill the gap. Would you believe that when I was in medical school we were told continuously that there was going to be a physician surplus and we were all looking at being unemployed or underemployed. Me and my dh (who's also an MD) are still waiting for that to happen, lol.</p>

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<p>Pencilpusher, thanks for bringing up the physician deficit. Our school in increasing about 15% in size.</p>

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<p>I know several MDs who went to med school with Cs in orgo. Son did well in orgo I, started orgo II this semester--got ill, had surgery and dropped the class. He said illness may have been a blessing because he was totally lost (this from the boy who won the freshman chemistry award at his U.) The class average on his first orgo II test was 26.</p>

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<p>My son is currently carrying an A in orgo with the normal amount of effort he puts into all of his classes. Italian, on the other hand, has been a virtual nightmare with a prof. who feels it's her duty to email lengthy homework assignments at least THREE TIMES A DAY!!! :eek:</p>

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<p>I took languages Pass/Fail! No way I'd have gotten a good grade in any language (other than English.) And they were required (Yuck!) I also found that my supposedly "easy" liberal arts classes were where I got my worst grades. My B in art history still hurts.</p>

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<p>Yay Orgo final in less than 24 hours! The low grades are just b/c there's no partial credit. A few stupid mistakes and you're done.</p>

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<p>my D took ochem and had a ghastly time, in fact she flunked the spring final and took a year off, retaking the whole sequence over again
A friend also took Ochem at same school and I doubt that she got an A, as very few students at their college get As, however she currently is at Tulane studying tropical medicine.</p>

<p>we found out after the fact, that many of my peers who are Mds, either audited the course first before taking for a grade, or took a light load while taking ochem</p>