<p>I'm trying to decide between Wash U and Northwestern and am leaning heavily towards Wash U. I am interested in cognitive neuroscience, and will major in PNP and at least try to pick up a minor in biology; I'd love to double major in it. The only real concern I have about Wash U is its reputation for harsh grading in the intro chem and bio classes. I got a call from a current Wash U student as part of the University's attempt to answer questions accepted students have. I have known about Wash U's reputation for grade deflation for a long time, and I asked the student I talked to said that only about 60% of students who take Gen Chem are allowed to pass it. That bothers me.</p>
<p>I'm not lazy/unmotivated by any means. I'm used to very tough classes anyway, because I went to my state's math and science magnet. I'm not overly concerned about my grades either, because I want to get into top Ph.D neuroscience programs and from what I'm told, as long as you have above a 3.5-3.6 GPA, you're fine for the top PhD programs (yes, I know what actually gets you into these programs is a lot of research experience and quality LORs; I've done research before in high school and enjoyed it tremendously, and the opportunities Wash U offers for undergrad research are my main reason for wanting to come). I'm not afraid of classes that are conceptually challenging either, however I am wary of classes that are difficult because of harsh grading. I know intro bio and chem classes will be tough anywhere, but from what I've heard it's exceptionally harsh at Wash U. </p>
<p>So my question is... how bad is the weeding really? How many people actually get through Gen Chem, Orgo, and Intro Bio and are able to take advantage of Wash U's fabulous upper level biology classes and the resources of the medical school? And of those who get through, how many get by with <strong><em>decent</em></strong> grades (I consider a decent grade to be a B- or better)? Percentages (even if they're approximations) would be very nice.</p>
<p>again....i'd like to know the same thing. lol illinois kid, we're basically going through the same things and making the same calls between NU and WashU, although I'm really having an even harder time deciding. 60 percent sounds a bit ridiculous...i dont want to be killing myself in intro courses just to prove to myself this is what i want to do. i dont even know yet for sure what the heck i want to do lol.</p>
<p>According to what I can see in the course evals system from previous semesters, very few people in Gen Chem receive lower than a C+, and most people seem to be in the B range. Looks like a pretty standard "normal distribution" curve to me.</p>
<p>illinois_kid, I can't address all your questions, but I went through Gen Chem last semester and am in bio this semester so I may be able to shed some light on those classes. First, I'm nearly positive that the statistic of 60% passing is ridiculous (and I'm a little concerned that a student who is contacting prospective freshmen is spreading that around). I can't give you exact numbers, but from last semester's Gen Chem the median score on a midterm was in the C+ or B- grade range (I'm not being specific because I don't completely remember and I also think it varied). If a student scored the mean on every test (three midterms and the final), he or she got a B- in the class. Based on the sizes of the sections I've seen from both semesters, there was no significant drop in the number of students. I sincerely doubt any of these could correspond to a class in which only 60% pass. I think bio actually has a more generous grading scale.</p>
<p>What I've noticed from these courses' grading is that C's to B-'s can be achieved by having a good understanding of the material. Above that is exceptional and takes extra studying/practice/test-taking skills/luck/a good breakfast. Less than that is, more often than not, from not putting in the work. As you have taken difficult courses at a top magnet school, I doubt you'd have any problems getting a decent grade in any of these intro classes.</p>
<p>That's not to say it isn't difficult, and I could easily say these tests from gen chem and bio were the hardest of my life. However, the school does not have ridiculous cut-offs and the students are not cut-throat (openly, anyway). The professors and TAs for these courses are always open to help students at office hours or review sessions and the school has amazing programs through which students can get help (PLTL, cornerstone, review sessions, private tutors, etc.). Don't let anxiety over these courses stop you from going to WashU if it is otherwise a great fit.</p>
<p>It should be noted that the 60% pass rate came from a student who is not a science major and thus did not have first-hand experience with Gen Chem or orgo. And I was rather blunt with my question too; I think the student was caught off guard. It seemed far too high to be true, so I wanted more input, hence my post. </p>
<p>And this isn't the first time the horrors of permed at the top midwestern schools has been dispelled for me. People hit on Northwestern organic chemistry for being a complete nightmare, but I spoke with an NU graduate in chem. engineering recently, and he said that it was pretty tough to get an A and a challenge to get a B, but that passing the class wasn't a big deal for most people. </p>
<p>More posts would be appreciated, but I think the posters so far have answered my questions quite well. Thank you very much for constructive CCing.</p>
<p>illinois_kid - Thanks so much for posting these questions! My daughter has been accepted to WashU and visited last Friday. She really loves the school, but in her words "I want to go someplace challenging, but not ridiculously hard." I think that is the one thing that is keeping her from sending in her acceptance form (even though time is getting short!). She had also heard about the "impossibility" of passing those courses for nearly HALF the class. In other words, she is not afraid of hard work, but is not interested in a school where there is a standard that is unreachable and unattainable.</p>
<p>oncampus and uptime156 - Thank you for your posts. They do more than you know to ease the minds (and release that knot in the stomachs) of prospective students.</p>
<p>I have a sophomore PNP major who is going the neuroscience route. Took General Chem as a freshman. Found it challenging, but when I mentioned the 60% figure quoted here - the comment was that whoever quoted that figure had no idea what they were talking about. Thought that the comments from uptime156 were pretty spot on. Worked in the class - ended up with a B+ and said that was a fair grade. If you did a reasonable amount of work - you ended up in the C+ to B range. A little bit more for a B+. To get an A you were looking at serious work. As for below a C - you really did not put in the effort. Then again General Chem is considered a relatively difficult class at WashU. Study groups were common and very non competetive - TAs were always willing to help as much as needed in discussion groups - prof was always available outside of class - and those that really needed a lot of outside help found Cornerstone tutoring provided what they needed as long as they were willing to put in the time.</p>
<p>Today in biology, as if on cue, the professor talked about preconceptions of biology and any other premed courses as being weed out classes. Essentially, he said that at WashU there is no such thing as a weed out course and that "students give the university too much credit." The university wants to see its students succeed and keeping them from going down their chosen path doesn't do that. He also said that around 60% of kids in biology receive As or Bs. This probably won't stop all talk of weed-out courses here, but he seemed genuine to me.</p>
<p>You know I don't remember the conversation with the Wash U student exactly, but it's possible that I told her my own personal standard of passing (B- or better) and she made the 60% comment in reference to that. Given the information presented by uptime156's bio professor and the other information given on this thread (if you're at the median, you'll probably get a B-), it seems more likely that the student in reference to my own personal standard of passing, then the "objective" standard of passing, which I suppose is a D+ or better (it might be C-, I don't know). But the student did not make that clear in the conversation.</p>
<p>I really don't care about grades that much... if I get a B in a class, so what (and I got plenty of B's in high school)? I'll get an A in something else and move on. Just I would get very anxious with a C in something, but it's really not the end of the world. A D or worse however, eh, that is MAJOR cause for concern. I ultimately would like a school where I can learn, even in the huge intro classes, and have to work very hard for a top grade, but not be in constant fear of failing outright.</p>