<p>I also have a D in her last year of high school, so I know how you feel. She's looking at a number of those on your list.</p>
<p>Westminster Choir College is a fine music school but, as the name implies, not necessarily an outstanding opera school. </p>
<p>You may want to look into the Hartt School, especially if you're making a sweep through New England. Check some of the other threads here about it. You may find it suits her needs well.</p>
<p>Do not discount Westminster on the basis of the name alone. I have sung with and heard some very good operatic voices who have been through that program either as undergrad or graduate students. As don9992 says, it is not NECESSARILY an outstanding opera school, but it certainly CAN be an outstanding opera school for the right student.</p>
<p>She might take a look at Cincinnati’s College-Conservatory of Music. I’m currently a student there. Whenever ranked against the other top programs CCM has been ranked among the top ten (#3 last time) in vocal performance. It’s one of the few conservatory level programs that stages an entire opera exclusively for undergraduate singers.</p>
<p>CCM has been a great place for me. It’s smaller in numbers and more selective for admissions than many similar programs, but if she can get in there really isn’t any place that will be more challenging and yet more personally comfortable for young singers. I’ve heard the awful stories about many of the schools you’ve mentioned, but never actually form someone who had bad things happen to them – I’ve even heard them about my school, but they always seem to have happened to “a friend of a friend”. I just don’t really believe most of it. Most of these things have been made up by singers who didn't make it into the elite programs.</p>
<p>My advice is that she contacts the head of the voice department for whatever schools she is interested in. She should ask if she can speak to any current students. After I got all my acceptances a few years ago I decided which schools I was going to consider. I had lunch with some undergraduate singers at the Manhattan School of Music, Mannes and CCM. Talking to them really helped me decided what the right place for me was.</p>
<p>BassDad, I may have overstated my case on WCC. My D went to summer programs 4 years in a row there and I'm pretty familiar with it. While their program is more oriented to choral music, I'm not saying it's a bad school for opera, just that opera is not where it's strength is.</p>
<p>I would toss Appalachian State University into the mix for your daughter, although transportation to/from Mexico will be difficult, even via airplane. </p>
<p>Oklahoma City University MIGHT be a good choice, but it hinges so, so much on an individual student's personality. I would not go there "blind", without having had a good thorough tour of the place. But if it clicks, great choice. </p>
<p>Check into Florida State University. We heard several singing ensembles when we visited in April, and they are all topnotch. Do be aware that the state of Florida is going into some tough economic times, though, and cutbacks are trickling down to each department. The university tends to over-enroll in the fall, so be aware of that. But one interesting thing we were told in our April tour; if you are accepted, and willing to study abroad for your first semester of your freshman year (through FSU, of course) -- you will be charged in-state tuition rates for your college career. We met some of the faculty, and they seemed very nice and down-to-earth. </p>
<p>I'll toss in a ditto for University of North Texas. That's on our daughter's short list, but for jazz vocal.
But also look into University of Texas-Austin. They just received a boatload of money to build a music department there, so that might be an interesting environment to be part of. </p>
<p>Good luck!</p>
<p>Miami (Frost) is often mentioned as a quality undergrad vocal program.</p>
<p>Please make sure your daughter understands that there is a LOT more to a vocal performance major than just singing. The aural skills and music theory requirements are quite intense.</p>
<p>CCM (Cincinnati) is extremely difficult to get into for an undergrad voice major.</p>
<p>MomofWildChild, even while it's selective, any young singer should try to get in. It's a great program.</p>
<p>I think you should add CCM to the list. It's been a great place for me.</p>
<p>I would reiterate one more time that the voice faculty at the major conservatories prefer not to accept or teach undergraduates, and they only do so as part of the degree granting mission of the institution. Very few young singers reveal what their potential is. It takes time, instincts, training, and luck. </p>
<p>OTOH, most voice teachers would prefer to get their hands on a singer who is not spoiled, does not need fixing. When I sit auditions for summer opera programs, very few singers who present have been well taught, and it is refreshing to hear a 21 year old who is doing all the right things. However that young singer is most likely not ready to be cast appropriately in any kind of major role. Some are accepted into the programs, so that the professional staff can attempt to guide and protect the talents, but what happens during the school year will make or break the talent.</p>
<p>Developing a young singing talent is a constant balancing act, and many voice teachers have been hired because of their own singing credentials and careers. This does not mean that they know what to do with a young or off-track voice. </p>
<p>Finding a voice teacher who knows how to teach the voice, not just coach the repertory, is a major project, but crucial for success. At the undergraduate level, this is far more important than how many opera productions the school produces during the year. Of course, it is helpful for the young singer to hear more mature voices and learn the repertory, but all of that can be enriched away from the college experience. </p>
<p>Good luck!</p>
<p>"stephmin, your perspective may be for instrumentalists, but for singers, the issue of physical maturity is paramount. Singing is refined, disciplined emotional expression."</p>
<p>Right, and I suppose that us instrumentalists have NO refinement, discipline, and emotional expression?! If anything, I would argue that violinists and pianists who have been practicing 2 hours per day every day since they were 4 years old have a LOT MORE discipline than those sopranos who don't learn their first classical piece until 16.</p>
<p>"I would reiterate one more time that the voice faculty at the major conservatories prefer not to accept of teach undergraduates"</p>
<p>Really. Then why is it that every conservatory has just as large an undergraduate voice population as graduate? You speak this so matter-of-fact-ly. What, do conservatories have separate faculties in their undergrad and grad divisions? Can you give me some names of specific teachers who teach at top conservatories that have straight out said that they don't want undergraduates? </p>
<p>What specifics exactly does a university or a liberal arts college offer that contributes more to the "physical maturity" that a conservatory doesn't? You say that undergraduate vocalists need to find a teacher that "knows how to teach the voice" and is "knowledgeable and helpful." Are you saying that the only knowledgeable and helpful teachers that know how to teach the voice to undergrads are at universities and not conservatories?</p>
<p>Do all undergraduate voice majors at conservatories fail miserably in their careers while the only successful ones are those who attended universities and LACs?</p>
<p>Now lorelei, I don't know who you are, if you're a student or a parent. But clearly, you decided that the conservatory route is not the right one for yourself or your child. That's perfectly fine, because every decision is quite personal with so many factors. However, there's a fine line between offering your opinions as helpful advice, and misleading others with huge blanket statements which may or may not be true.</p>
<p>Stephemin,</p>
<p>You are a new member, Lorelei has been around for a long time. You won't get much support from this forum with that attitude towards a CC favorite member.</p>
<p>I agree with singermom1.</p>
<p>This forum is just great. It gives us all the opportunity to share our experiences, our feelings, our anxiety, it is a place to give and recieve. Thank to every kind hand that has reached me on the past few days, know I have been able to find light in my quest. Besides all this information, there is also our personal history, my D history, her talent, her desire to sing and learn and also of course, her actual maturity as a person and as a musician. It might seem not as a big step, but is much much more than what we have before we enter this forum.
We, as a family, are assessing where to jump from where we are at this point. (It is like a weight lifter, at a competition, they cannot lift a big weight at first trial, even professional ones, they start with certain weight and from there, they gradually increase it until they reach their goal).
This is what we have learn so far:</p>
<p>1.- We will keep bulding our school list up to the ends of October. Where we will start the prescreening process.</p>
<p>2.- We started to define what type of "talents" the school should offer
This is, a school for D should have teachers who care for the complete development of the student as a person and as a musician, they should protect and conort the student with one arm and push and pressure with the other arm according to the studen capacity; Comptetition is ok, as long as they care for students feelings and this competition is fine as it is used as a tool for students to improve themselves not as a way to fight each other down; I faculty that encourage students to work hard and recognices good and excellet efforts; and some other "talents", that we will be defining ans sharing with you all in our quest.</p>
<p>3.- Of course, to reach point number 2, we are assuming that D will be invidet for auditions and later on (i really hope), she has a chance to visit and select the proper school for her</p>
<p>Big hug to you all</p>
<p>singermom1 and Hindoo,</p>
<p>Sorry if my "attitude" rubbed you off in a non positive way.</p>
<p>But that's okay. It's not in my interest to try to "win" any arguments on this board. All I want to do is bring different POV's to the table, so the people reading can best devise for themselves their own perspectives on whatever topics are covered. Some posters may have the personal experience or in-the-know to be able to contribute valuable opinion that may be of help to another poster/reader. I just wish to also let readers know that some things are more than black-and-white, and mere personal word of mouth is not the only, nor most dependable, source of knowledge that there exists.</p>
<p>Worrydad, best of luck to you and your daughter's search for a perfect fit school. She is lucky to have the support of a father who clearly deeply cares about her future.</p>
<p>stephmin, you are most welcome to bring your point of view, but you should realize that Lorelei is a professional singer who teaches voice at the college level. She is also the parent of an instrumentalist who is either still in college or a recent grad. She has more than a bit of first-hand experience to relate in the current discussion. That and her many helpful contributions to this group gives her a fair amount of credibility, which you have not yet had the opportunity to establish. I believe that is the main reason that you have gotten a couple of people annoyed. If you would care to relate your own expertise and contribute a number of thoughtful articles of your own, then you too can earn the same level of respect that she has gotten over the years.</p>
<p>stephmin, I'm the father of a string player (degreed, with a tenured chair, playing professionally). I've been around long enough to see the advantages of an early start (and proper teachers/coaches/mentors) as early as possible for instrumentalists. I agree that the learning curve begins at a much earlier age for instrumentalists than for vocalists.</p>
<p>Per lorelei
[quote]
Developing a young singing talent is a constant balancing act, and many voice teachers have been hired because of their own singing credentials and careers. This does not mean that they know what to do with a young or off-track voice.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The same can be said of a number of instrumental faculty, be they university, conservatory, or LAC. They may well be superb technicians, musicians, and performing artists, but many have little or no talent for transmitting their knowledge.</p>
<p>However, the maturity to which lorelei refers is physical maturity, and relates to the growth and development of the vocal chords and larynx, which do not fully develop and mature until late teens through early twenties. There are also different rates of maturation for males and females as well. Inappropriate repetoire and technique can do some serious damage. Perhaps you misunderstood her reference to maturity. </p>
<p>I don't necessarily agree with all of lorelei's opinions on conservatories, but I do respect her opinions and her years of experience.</p>
<p>you wrote:
[quote]
Right, and I suppose that us instrumentalists have NO refinement, discipline, and emotional expression?!
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Personally, I interpreted nothing in her posts to this thread that would have brought me to that conclusion.</p>
<p>Lorelei brings more personal and professional insight to the issues that young SINGERS face, than anyone else posting on CC. Her posts on the education of vocalists should be regaurded as more than "mere personal word of mouth".</p>
<p>My own personal research validated what Lorelei has said. There are other parents here who came to the same conclusions. It was rare for me to talk to either a professional singer or a former conservatory undergrad voice major who recommended conservatories for the undergrad voice. I emailed and talked to many. Even those who graduated from top conservatories more often than not told me that, if they could go back, they would not have chosen a conservatory for undergrad. Some simply feel that they missed out on the college experience and felt they had fewer performance opportunities than their friends at universities. Others felt they were often ignored or had a teacher who had little patience in bringing along the young voice. I talked to some who actually had to have "rehab" lessons because their very well known teachers were great with rep but not with technique. They preferred to work with graduate students with technique in place. Others simply felt that the expense did not justify the outcome since they were headed to grad school anyway. My daughter's voice teacher - a graduate of Curtis - has taken several students who left top conservatories after or during freshman year and came to her to help rebuild both confidence and a healthy technique. The school that was the exception was Westminster Choir College. They have a huge faculty who really seem to nurture the young voice. Certainly there are those at the top conservatories who can do the same but a lot of research is necessary. There is a reason that many, if not most, of the top young singers winning the most prestigious vocal competitions did not attend conservatories until grad school.</p>
<p>WorryDad --</p>
<p>The more information you are willing to share with us, the more people here can help you.
Do you have financial concerns?
How is your daughter's English?</p>
<p>I wouldn't expect invitations from too many schools. You will need to visit, and it's a competitive enough field that you will be best served by initiating contact on your own. Or are there schools that come down to recruit in your area? </p>
<p>Another website source you might want to try is the Classical Singer's Forum. I don't have the address, but if you google for it, you should find it.</p>
<p>Stephmin,</p>
<p>I am sorry that you have taken offense at my perspective, but I assure you my perception is first hand and from a long tenure in the field of voice. I have taught at university and conservatory level for over 40 years. I teach professional singers and I have taught younger singers. I have served as an officer in professional music organizations on a national level, and I have personal relationships with voice faculty members at most major conservatories in this country. I would not quote any of them directly, but they say to me, and I agree from my own awareness, that they do not want to take undergraduate voice students, because they know that is not the best place for them to be. They are required to accept them so that their school is a comprehensive degree granting institution...i.e., they must actually award undergraduate degrees in all the music disciplines. Additionally, I would say that the weakest students, in terms of vocal technique, who have entered my private studio are graduates of conservatories. This singers who have come from good, solid undergraduate programs in the "provinces" sing better, have more performance experience, and have much greater confidence. Even the ones who have problems have proved more responsive. </p>
<p>(Additionally I have two children who have pursued degrees in music, one in strings at a major conservatory, and one in voice through universities. The voice graduate has been a professional opera singer in Europe for almost 15 years, and has the spouse. I know their colleagues who were educated in the USA, most were educated at lesser known schools, and graduate education was pursued at the major state universities. My string player has observed that most, indeed almost all, conservatory graduate friends are doing non-music things.)</p>
<p>Any comments about maturity have to do with physical maturity and co-ordination. When I speak of emotional expression, I am not talking about how someone interprets and understands a piece of music. I am talking about the primary function of the vocal instrument as a vehicle for the emotional expression of the human animal, so that needs and feelings can be expressed to each other. The issue of refinement has to do with how a singer learns, over many years and much co-ordinated effort, to present that expression through exact music and text. I certainly did not mean to impugn instrumentalists and their expressive technique.</p>