<p>My mediocre public school produces around 5 or so 4.0 kids per graduating class. However, these kids with 4.0’s usually have an average SAT of 1900 or so, and end up going to UMD. Interstingly, it is usually the kids with slightly lower gpa’s who end up getting the higher SAT scores and going to higher ranked schools.</p>
<p>The ACT questions are simple and straightforward and test basic concepts. You can miss a few questions in each area (math, english etc) and still score high. For example, you can miss 5 out of 75 in English, miss 5 out of 60 in Math, miss 4 out of 40 in Reading, and miss 3 out of 40 in science and still score a 32 in each of these areas. Someone who got As and Bs in high school courses should be able to get a 32 on ACT. These are simple, multiple choice questions. See <a href=“http://www.act.org/aap/pdf/preparing.pdf[/url]”>http://www.act.org/aap/pdf/preparing.pdf</a> for a full test and a raw score to scaled score conversion chart (page 63 of the downloaded pdf).</p>
<p>I’m surprised that only 1% of test takers can score 32 i.e. 99% of students can’t get better than approximately 93% correct answers on act tests. How are they getting so many As in high school, if not for grade inflation? An A in a course means you know all the material in the curriculum and if you know all the material, you should be able to get most of the answers right on a simple multiple choice test such as the ACT.</p>
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<p>I think that would totally screw over high schools in which the vast majority of students were going to local or in-state colleges, and the concerns of those who are aiming higher are, well, just not all that visible or important. Not to mention high schools in which the GC’s are dealing with truancy, troubled children, and other such issues that crowd out college counseling. You know, it doesn’t matter how much “pressure” I put on my kids’ GC’s. They simply are not going to respond to my concerns when pleasing parents like me who are looking to send kids to better schools is about 1% of what they need to accomplish to get their job done. If I had some suggestion that would improve everyone’s chances of getting into U of Illinois, they’re going to listen, but for elite colleges? Nah. It’s not important enough to them.</p>
<p>“The ACT questions are simple and straightforward and test basic concepts. You can miss a few questions in each area (math, english etc) and still score high. For example, you can miss 5 out of 75 in English, miss 5 out of 60 in Math, miss 4 out of 40 in Reading, and miss 3 out of 40 in science and still score a 32 in each of these areas. Someone who got As and Bs in high school courses should be able to get a 32 on ACT. These are simple, multiple choice questions. See <a href=“http://www.act.org/aap/pdf/preparing.pdf[/url]”>http://www.act.org/aap/pdf/preparing.pdf</a> for a full test and a raw score to scaled score conversion chart (page 63 of the downloaded pdf).”</p>
<p>Most people with a 3.5+ given unlimited time could get a 36 (or atleast that 32+). The ACT is very fast (personally, I remember going into extreme rush mode through the science and reading sections the whole time). And beyond that, even with unlimited time, I can easily see someone getting some of those numbers wrong. Especially on the Reading, they’re not all that straight forward. </p>
<p>“I’m surprised that only 1% of test takers can score 32 i.e. 99% of students can’t get better than approximately 93% correct answers on act tests. How are they getting so many As in high school, if not for grade inflation? An A in a course means you know all the material in the curriculum and if you know all the material, you should be able to get most of the answers right on a simple multiple choice test such as the ACT.”</p>
<p>All I can say is that sounds silly and poorly thought out. The ACT reading isn’t asking questions on Animal Farm, and the Science isn’t asking about my TLC experiment. A high school curriculum isn’t the same thing as the ACT. No teacher ever decided that that day in class we were going to do a practice ACT. The ACT doesn’t test the curriculum. It’s more akin to an IQ test than a test of what you learned in high school (which is what it should be in my opinion).</p>
<p>Pizzagirl - That’s the same attitude at our HS! I had to explain to the GC how the on-line CommonApp systems actually made her job easier!
(However, they will recalculate the GPA on a 4.0 scale if required to by a college or scholarship. When they do, they take off ALL weights!)</p>
<p>qwertykey: You make a good point when you say the ACT (or SAT) isn’t the same as your high school curriculum. I concur. They are testing a least common denominator (LCD) of what they expect high school students to know (until 11th grade). A good percentage of students go beyond those minimum requirements by taking ap/ib courses, honors classes, and additional electives. You would expect those students to breeze through these standardized tests that are only testing the LCD.</p>
<p>I agree these are timed tests, but again, considering they are simple concepts and not deep problems, at least the top 5% of students ought to be able to score 32 on ACT.</p>
<p>Now, if you really want to see a test that expects high school students to get very deep, here is a sample Joint Engineering Entrance test collectively conducted by the top engineering schools in India: <a href=“http://www.vidyalankar.org/files/Sample%20Papers_IITJEE.pdf[/url]”>http://www.vidyalankar.org/files/Sample%20Papers_IITJEE.pdf</a>. This sample test shows chemistry, math, and physics portions of the test. They also have an English portion. Remember, this is for engineering schools, so they are only focusing on math, phy, and chem.</p>
<p>Well, as an engineering student I think I would have an easier time with that test than the ACT reading (which I thought was hard). Though we didn’t learn Orgo in High school, or E&M. </p>
<p>What is the timing on that test?</p>
<p>Hmm…I don’t know. I guess I would say it varies from school to school and class to class. My school in particular – I’m ranked 10th there and nearly everyone from ranks 1 through 11 have 4.0’s. I’m not dismissing the existence of grade inflation, but our class has drawn quite the selection of students (compared with other classes below us and previously above). Our top 6 all have 2300+/35+'s on SAT/ACT, while the rest of the 5 of us have 33+/2200+'s. The top 5 students have straight 5’s on 8+ AP’s and have participated in numerous E.C.'s. I’m not bragging at all or anything, but I thought I would offer another insight into this discussion.</p>
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<p>Actually, that’s not true. In my state, the ACT is required of all high school juniors (whether intending to go to college or not) … and, they complete a practice ACT as sophomores as part of the state requirements. So yes, they are doing practice ACT’s. This is a pretty populous state.</p>
<p>How can they force people to take a practice ACT? My state requires the ACT as well, but not a practice test.</p>
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<p>I think your insight is just another example of grade inflation… My school has 3 maybe 4 people with a 4.0 GPA however the top 20 students have 2300+ SATs and ~8-14 APs with basically all 5s.</p>
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<p>While I agree that GPA should not be a measure of intelligence, I believe grades should reflect students’ achievement not their effort. (Measuring effort is very subjective.) Unfortunately, it seems that most K-12 schools use grades to measure effort more than achievement and this can be an issue for college admissions.</p>
<p>Heres a possible scenario.</p>
<p>Student with an A grade:
Slow learner, gets Bs & Cs on tests, takes advantage of all extra credit opportunities to raise grade (including things like those 1 origami geometric models that show off his artistic talents), keeps a neat notebook that counts for 10% of grade, is most active participant in class discussions but rarely adds anything useful, etc.</p>
<p>Student with a B grade:
Quick learner, gets mostly As on tests, rarely takes advantage of extra credit opportunities because he thinks they add nothing to his learning, doesnt take detailed notes because he doesnt use them, only speaks up in class when he feels he has something important to add, etc.</p>
<p>On a final exam and on the AP test, the B student showed complete mastery of the subject while the A student did not. In this scenario, grades reflected effort more than achievement.</p>
<p>Colleges may prefer the A student over the B student in many cases, but we shouldnt be surprised when the need for remedial courses continues to increase. Estimates are that at least 30% of all college students take remedial courses; even Dartmouth offers them.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.deltacostproject.org/resources/pdf/DiplomaToNowhere.pdf[/url]”>http://www.deltacostproject.org/resources/pdf/DiplomaToNowhere.pdf</a></p>
<p>“While I agree that GPA should not be a measure of intelligence, I believe grades should reflect students’ achievement not their effort. (Measuring effort is very subjective.) Unfortunately, it seems that most K-12 schools use grades to measure effort more than achievement and this can be an issue for college admissions.”</p>
<p>Fair enough. That’s what I meant. </p>
<p>Personally, I don’t remember any notebook grades, participation grades, other nonsense like that in high school. There were a few with some non-academic extra credit, but for the most part, my classes were graded on achievement. I suppose my high school may have been a good one though.</p>
<p>I have to agree with QwertyKey as I read this thread. I do think there is grade inflation. How can a 90% be a 4.0? Really? How can a 4.0 scale be a 4.3 scale. This is grade inflation pure and simple. I’m not totally opposed to a small percentage of a grade in high school relative to participation or effort as high school “feels” like the best place to push kids on the skills they will need for college such class discussion, ability to have the essential skills for research and lab notes, etc. I don’t totally agree with what my kids’ school does but the rationale was sound. The school followed the UofMich (our state flagship) formula for GPA, GPA was reported unweighted and followed the UofMich formula. Now that UMich is not recalculating it will be interesting to see if there are any changes in our policy. Our high school then recalculates all students in the senior spring giving some weight to the rigorous courses to calculate the honored seniors, but the transcripts reflects unweighted. Oh and it takes a 93% to get an A not 90%. I also think some of it is driven by parents and the schools. They “want” A students and want to report A students, where it looses its value is when every student is an A student then that A becomes meaningless. I always believed there is some correlation between standardized tests and GPAs and that the colleges are able to glean the information in a meaningful way. Where you can really evidence that is by looking at where the 3.5 kids end up attending.</p>
<p>Payfor–I am looking at your model A & B students, and I am surprised that the “B” student wouldn’t get high marks on the final exam & AP test. There are many who breeze through class, not caring about extra credit or details like taking notes the way the teacher demands, but absolutely master the material.</p>
<p>Quertykey–I remember nonsense like keeping a notebook a certain way, and my kids all had the same issue in at least one class. I had to persuade my brilliant son to go along with the program so he would get grades that reflect his mastery of the subject. Too bad, but that was the rule.</p>
<p>mommusic, you’re fortunate to have a brilliant son who can be persuaded to go along with the program. My own brilliant son has never, NEVER been willing to do the busywork, and it shows in his grades. But since I was the same way as a kid, and since I have never found a way to motivate myself to do such things, I have a hard time holding it against him. I just figure he’ll come into his own one day, and I’ll try to steer him toward careers that play to his particular abilities.</p>
<p>What’s even worse is when the busywork grades aren’t even used consistently, and basically become a “do I like you” grade. One of my French teachers used it that way once, claiming that participation grades were based on compliance to her standards first quarter and were based solely on hand-raising third quarter in order to give me a poor grade both times. Of course, this change in standards was not announced to the class. Being a 4.0 student requires not only following the system, but luck in how fluff grades are calculated.</p>
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<p>Our school district went through a major battle a year ago over this issue. Under the prior grade scale an A was a 93-97 (above was A+). Parents were furious that 90% was a B+. I disagreed, and expressed my opinions to the school board, but the grade scale was changed to 90/80/70, etc. Of course the teachers have adjusted their grading standards for this (as many of them said they would).</p>
<p>As for the A+ (98% and above), I really don’t have a problem with this because it helps distinguish the students who are achieving at the very top of their classes. An A+ is not easy to get and they aren’t handed out lightly.</p>
<p>^^^Isn’t that the case when you are working in the real world? It’s never the hardest worker or the smartest worker rise to the top.</p>
<p>“Quertykey–I remember nonsense like keeping a notebook a certain way, and my kids all had the same issue in at least one class. I had to persuade my brilliant son to go along with the program so he would get grades that reflect his mastery of the subject. Too bad, but that was the rule.”</p>
<p>Hmmm… I really didn’t have any of those in high School. I did in middle school but not high school. Just different experiences for everyone I guess.</p>