<p>Just your average(?) family, with a 46 year-old parent trying to save a couple million dollars for college and retirement while raising three children. (The article suggests subsidized Stafford Loans. I wonder if they'd qualify.)</p>
<p>I read the article and watched the video, "How can I turn down Princeton." The answer is to send Princeton ( or put any top named school here) a nice letter noting that you are taking the scholarship at your local state university.</p>
<p>Frankly, I think kids and parents are CRAZY incurring large debts to attend an ivy school if they can go for almost free at a decent state university. Every study and most student comments in forums support my opinion. However, life is what it is.</p>
<p>taxguy- What you say is probably true from a purely economic perspective. There are kids, and I am the parent of one, who need the level of peers found at a more selective school and would not do as well at a decent state university. Yes, I understand that the top kids at the state schools are every bit as smart. I was one of them (Indiana)! I also felt that the bottom 2/3 of the place was pretty sub-par. It's better today at the publics, but still not the same as a top private. That's fine for many kids- but there are some that really are better if surrounded by peers close to their same level. I'm not being a snob here- I have a lot of criticisms of the Ivy my kid attends and in many ways would have preferred a state university or a LAC for him. I think it takes some work to find the intellectual level you need at a state university. It can be done, but it takes some effort. At the selective privates it's easier- perhaps the lazy way to go??</p>
<p>taxguy,</p>
<p>WE happen to be one of those families whose D turned down a full ride to a major state university in order to attend a private university with no financial aid. And it was not even an Ivy! (just lowly University of Chicago). And it was the best decision we ever made. We are not wealthy - just wealthy enough to just miss need based aid. but we managed.</p>
<p>Because her college facilitated her excelling, she has gone on to win honors we could not have imagined four or five years ago. And I can guarantee you she would not have excelled in the same way at a state university.</p>
<p>MOWC said it as well as I could: Each kid is different. Each opportunity set is different. Parental views towards money are different. </p>
<p>So taxguy, I think some posters are CRAZY for jumping to conclusions regarding the circumstances of people they don't know or undestand. But you may spend your money as you like, on current consumption perhaps, rather than investing in the intellectual capital of your offspring. :)</p>
<p>taxguy, we have disagreed on this issue many a time on CC. I 'm with MomofWildChild and NewMassDad on this. However, my kids did receive financial aid to go to their private universities. But my older one indeed turned down a full ride at the state U and did go to an Ivy (though she didn't have a need to attend an Ivy per se). She could get a great education locally for sure but the experience and student body would have been FAR different and she had the experience she needed for the type of kid she is. For grad school, she has turned down some major scholarships to attend MIT where she did not get a scholarship (the only grad school where she was accepted where that happened, even though the others were also tops in her field). This one felt like the best fit for her. It is worth the price. My other D goes to a top school for performing arts in her field, one of the most expensive schools in the country, and a private. Her experience has been phenomenal there and we don't regret one penny or loan it has taken to send her. It is the right place for HER and her experience could not be had at some other places. She received excellent scholarships and FA and in fact, keeps winning more scholarships from the university every time we open the mail (we don't even know how these came about...including one we opened two days ago). </p>
<p>It isn't about a better education as much as about the school that better fits the student. My kids found that school for themselves and it has been priceless in our opinion. They could go to cheaper schools but these schools and their experiences there could not be the same at some of the cheaper alternatives even if those schools offer a great education (and they do). As MOWC also mentions, the student bodies as a WHOLE differ quite a lot as well. The challenge by their peers and the faculty they have been able to work with has affected the overall experience. We are VERY happy with the decisions we have made for the kids' college and grad school educations.....and even if it is costing us a lot, it has been more than worth it and the kids have taken advantage of every opportunity there and are happy and I can't put a price on that. There are cheaper alternatives but I don't think these were the right ones for my kids. Investing in these schools and the sacrifice is more than worth it to us.</p>
<p>taxguy's position might have made sense if he were talking about some of the more mediocre private universities. But the Ivies (and the elite research universities and LACs) are so resource rich compared to a state U that it is hard to compare.</p>
<p>It is also ironic to have this discussion here when posters in other threads are discussing how few students graduate from state U in four years - how it takes 5 or 6 for most of them, frequently because of the inability to get into critical courses.</p>
<p>Right now, we read daily in our local papers how state U budgets are being cut, faculty laid off, class sizes increased, courses dropped, and such, so such posts are all the more ironic.</p>
<p>I suspect that a majority of students who attend top universities would have qualified for full rides at several lesser universities- public and private. Since most top students apply to at least one safety, this probably happens all the time.</p>
<p>My reason for posting the article/video was to laud CC for disseminating information and also as a forum to discuss the pros and cons of college options. I have one D who is very well-served at a private (on scholarship, requisite for her attendance there), and another who is doing very well at an OOS flagship. Two down, one to go ... and retirement (at relatively advanced age) still looks doable. Taxguy's view resonates with me, but as with many opinions on CC, it probably doesn't for everyone. What rankles me in the OP article is the BENIGN manner that significant loans are presented, in much the same tone one might use for travel options: "Well you could take the Mass Pike to 84 and then take the Thruway south, or you could go 95 all the way and risk traffic along the coast."</p>
<p>...and no one has even mentioned the networking and alumni opportunities that are not as available from the state universities. CUNY (City University of NY) had an amazing reputation for a exceptionally successful groups of graduates who remained involved years ago, but very few of the state schools have that. There really is a difference beyond the level of education and the peer group available that will be felt for many years after graduation.</p>
<p>^^ I actually think the large state flagships have pretty good networking potential. Think UTexas (I no longer say UT since I moved to TN), Texas A&M, Nebraska in Nebraska, Alabama in Alabama and elsewhere in the south....... Those schools serve you quite well in the home state and surrounding states. </p>
<p>I'm focusing more on what is going on during the 4 (or 5) years at the university. I chose private schooling for my kids all the way up, and will admit to favoring private education in most circumstances (we happened to live where the public schools were a horrible option). I also think there are some fields of study where you may be better served at a flagship public- engineering comes to mind. You still have the problem pointed out about not being able to get into required courses when you need them. You also probably don't have your political writing teacher getting you into a Democratic primary debate like my kid did at his private.</p>
<p>It all depends on the #s- </p>
<p>Are you turning down a full pay at HYPS against a full ride at pudunk tier 4 state U that is no match at all or are you getting UMich/UVA/Cal? Is it a FAFSA vs Profile thing? We got aid from FAFSA schools but it was much worse from Profile schools, though that was before all the income & equity limiters they have added in recent years.</p>
<p>So, if UVA & Cal are $40K less each year than Vassar or Stanford, then I am not sure it is worth it to pay the difference. It depends on the experience offered at each school and the experience needed by each student. My D1 had an NYU option, but she is not a performer, she does not need to be in NYC at 16, whilst Suzie's DD had legit reasons for that pursuit.</p>
<p>I agree with every post except Post #2. But, in support of those selecting the state school scholarships, I do think that it is an individual decision based on several factors including whether or not the student is seeking a specialized course of study. For students seking a liberal arts education, I am in total agreement with MomofWildChild & mini & newmassdad & vicariousparent.
Most of my son's friends at Northwestern turned down major scholarships from state schools like Wisconsin.</p>
<p>Somemom...all true in my D's case (the one at NYU/Tisch). I must say, however, that of all the BFA programs she was accepted to and she did receive FA and scholarships at them all, she received the most money (and it is substantial) from NYU/Tisch, a very expensive private school, so ya never know. Regardless, we would have let her go no matter what. It is a very good fit for her and she has made the most of it. </p>
<p>I agree with someone who posted about networking and also who you get to work with....be it the peer group or the faculty. There are some opportunities my D is having that I don't know that she could have had elsewhere. For example, she studied with and then was hired by (at a professional rate of pay) a Tony nominated playwright/director, and my D musically directed this person's new work in NYC last year and then musically directed another project as well for this person, for pay. Currently, my D just began rehearals for a production and the person who is directing it and handpicked his cast, is also a Tony nominated director and playwright and his current show he wrote and will direct is opening this season on Broadway starring Jane Fonda. He came to the first rehearsal Monday night and my D said he knew every cast member's name upon arrival having remembered them from casting them earlier this fall. He even has to miss a few rehearsals since he is currently prepping his show for Broadway. Several of my D's peers have gone onto Broadway and the like. Uh, she could not have had these and many other experiences I am not mentioning that she has had at NYU (she has performed at Lincoln Center, for instance), had she gone to many other schools, including the state U (which is a fine U if I must say so).</p>
<p>Hey, let's be real. For every kid like Soozie's D performing at Lincoln Center there are dozens at every single school partying all night and snoozing through class.</p>
<p>My kids went private; we paid full freight; we do not regret it. However, I can say in hindsight that my kids knew plenty of fellow students who did not take advantage of the phenomenal resources that were there for the taking. Kids with C- averages who never showed up for review sections or office hours. Kids who were still choosing a thesis topic three weeks before the thesis was due. Kids who were adept at Beer-Pong but had never been to the university art museum or attended a poetry reading or attended a lunch where a former secretary of state "duked it out" with the cold war experts from the Poli Sci department.</p>
<p>If your kid is going to actually show up for the phenomenal seminars and educational opportunities and go to lectures in the rare book room at night "just for fun" then it's worth spending time doing the math on how the finances might work (or not). If your kid is going to spend 4 years at Princeton majoring in "hooking up" or playing Wii in his dorm room, then I think you'd have to be nuts to spend the money.</p>
<p>But I don't get to tell other people how to live. I am just grateful that my kids realized what a huge commitment we had made to their educations and decided to show us in return how much they valued it. I do get testy at all the experts here on CC and in real life who love to tell people like me that we are dopes and crazy to spend the money on private colleges when the kids could have gone to XYZ U for free. I don't complain about what it cost or how long it took to save.... so don't volunteer that my kid could have had a cakewalk for college and that we could have bought them cars so they didn't have to take the bus if we weren't so stupid and insisted on paying tuition.</p>
<p>I get it. Many consumer products forfeited over the 22 years it took to raise each kid the way I wanted to . Yup, message received.</p>
<p>blossom, I agree...the more expensive education only makes sense if the student takes advantage of it. In my two kids' cases, they truly have done so and that is why we feel it has been worth the sacrifice to send them to the schools they chose to attend, and not the cheapest alternatives. Our kids are constantly thanking us for the opportunity we gave them to attend and telling us (though truly are SHOWING it) that they are making the most of it. In fact, D2 just wrote a birthday card to Dad thanking him for working hard to make this happen for her and that she is truly "using this opportunity to its fullest." My other D has written me such cards as well. Cards or not, I see them really getting all that they can out of their colleges and I have never felt a dime has been wasted. I realize that is not the case for everyone and so they need to make decisions about their own finances, willingness to sacrifice for this value, and also know their own kids. We each do what we think is best in our own situations.</p>
<p>blossom- What an articulate testimony and description of less than motivated students, and parents' sacrifices. </p>
<p>Let's hear a cheer for those of us who value educational opportunity over granite counters and Viking ranges (not that there's anything wrong with it as Jerry Seinfeld would say.) Formica and an ivy-strewn graduation weekend: priceless.</p>
<p>fauve....LOL. I don't have a granite countertop and I am not even sure what a Viking range is. But I did enjoy my D's ivy-strewn grad weekend. :D</p>
<p>EDIT:
Oddly, my post appears BEFORE fauve's post to which I was replying. Oh well.</p>
<p>blossom--that's an interesting and insightful post. </p>
<p>However, for those of us whose kids are still seniors in HS and are looking forward to the college experience -- how do you know which category your future-college-student will fall into? If your kid in HS was able to do well (enough) with a tiny bit of study and wasn't involved in a whole lot of ECs---will the assumption be that a more rigorous environment w/a variety of academically adventurous kids will pull your child forward to fulfill his potential (i.e. "it's okay to be smart")?</p>
<p>Or, is it better to not put $40k of debt on the line (per year, for student & co-signing family) on the gamble that student will likely not explore those private school options & will instead do fine at a big, public U that's less-challenging (& will hopefully not fall in with the 'majority party' crowd)? </p>
<p>I admire the parents who seem to know: "My child needs a smart peer group" or "My child can find his own way in a big, public." I just don't know w/my son---and I'd hate to guess wrong and foreclose an option that would be the catalyst to a life-long love of learning.</p>
<p>Jolynne...that's a good question. I am not sure how to answer it, however. I KNEW my kids were gonna be like this in college as this is what they were like in HS (they went to a rural public HS). They have always craved challenge and are highly motivated and driven. They like to excel and their motivation is internal. They were heavily involved in ECs growing up and in HS and not in order to get into college but out of sheer desire and I knew they would continue their ECs in college as they would not wanna give those up. So, it never even entered my mind the question you just posed. </p>
<p>You mention a kid who does well enough with a "tiny bit of study" and also not that heavily involved in ECs. Well, that's the way the kid is now and there is a good chance that is the kind of student he/she will be in the future and so going to a school where you cannot get by with a "tiny bit of study" would likely be a problem. Going to a college where one may not intend to get too involved in ECs means they may not be right for a college where everyone in the student body is mucho involved in ECs. So, just know thy kid and have them pick a college setting that fits the kind of person they are. I think it is about fit and not what is "better."</p>
<p>By the way, at the end of your post, you mention foreclosing on a lifelong love of learning....and I just wanna say that that can be accomplished at all sorts of colleges.</p>
<p>fauve - I'll see your Formica countertop, and raise (raze?) you a vintage avocado green 1970 kitchen with a touch of ORIGINAL vinyl wallpaper remaining!</p>