<p>MiamiDAP,</p>
<p>OK. I'll just ignore the PR and all the other party school rankings that seem to be dominated by large state U. I guess the thousands of students that party at each of these schools, drop out at high rates and take many years to complete their degrees are only doing so when they finish their academic work. :)</p>
<p>It is too bad you can't seem to accept that a large, diverse institution can have students that are there for differing reasons. It is even worse when you can't see that when someone talks about one subset at a college, it is not a reference to everyone. FWIW, I went to a well-recognized "party" school as an undergrad, and saw plenty of all kinds of students on campus - the ones who never studied and flunked out, as well as the ones who studied hard, went on to grad and professional school and have had exciting intellectual careers. I can tell you first hand how both exist, and how I did not feel insulted by the presence of my less intellectually motivated peers. </p>
<p>
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I have met highly motivated, highest caliber students at state schools all over our state, most of whom qualified to apply to Ivy's and such.
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So what? what do the high performers have to do with the fact that they have fellow students who are slackers?</p>
<p>I still do not get, as frustrating as it might seem to me. You imply that there are no "students who are slackers" at Ivy's and at the same time stating that "past high accomplishments do not guarantee future motivation"? How come then, we hear about various parties and such at Brown, Columbia and so forth? Aren't these kids attending Ivy / elite school or they are outsiders that decided to party on school premises?</p>
<p>Again, in regard to "program selectivity and past high accomplishments do not guarantee future motivation"
- it pretty much does. If kids in these programs do not perform they are kicked out of the program automatically as well as stripped of all Merit scholarships. They are very well aware of it and most of them make sure that it does not happen to them. When they are presented with various opportunities (not necessarily "party", but even job and such) the first question they ask, can I handle this in addition to high GPA requirement?</p>
<p>Miami- partying doesn't equate to being a slacker. There are plenty of parties going on at the Ivys. My kid has a higher profile social life than I would prefer, but he is certainly not a slacker. He has a very high GPA, attends lectures, has a law firm job and works out. There are slackers at the Ivys and they usually don't get to remain there. The percentage that don't make it is a lot lower than that in the Big Ten (for example). Almost all of the kids admitted to highly-selective schools have a pretty good shot at graduating. This is not the case with many state universities- even the flagships. The kid in the dorm room next to you at Iowa State or IU (to use my own alma mater) has a good chance of not being around sophomore year. Again- the top 25% of students are incredibly motivated, qualified and bright, but there is a low bottom.</p>
<p>I pretty much agree with what MOWC posted in #83. The top kids at certain state schools, such as ones in Honors programs and the like, could rival any kids at elite colleges for sure. They simply chose the state U to attend. There are great students everywhere. There are slackers at most schools as well. But I think at the highly selective schools the proportion of slackers is less than at a less selective school. So, in terms of the entire student body, it differs between these schools, even though there is overlap. And yes, the graduation rates also differ. So, the overall environment is going to be different, even though you can get a very fine education at either school and the top kids do overlap between schools. The differences come more when you examine the ENTIRE student body at these colleges. I know at my D's school, Brown, every kid she knew seemed to excel both academically and outside of academics and was very motivated and graduated. I know kids at our state U who are like that too who my kids went to HS with. But I also know some who are not that type. And some don't make it through either. The ones in the Honors College are similar to those at my D's Ivy, but that is just 100 kids on the entire campus.</p>
<p>"How come then, we hear about various parties and such at Brown, Columbia and so forth? Aren't these kids attending Ivy / elite school or they are outsiders that decided to party on school premises?"</p>
<p>??? Can't some people both work hard and party hard? Why are they seen as mutually exclusive?</p>
<p>The kid in my D's room is HS valedictorian just as my D. She is also a captain of university "Speach" team. The next room and the next room and so forth are the same type of kids. Yes, there are other dorms on campus, besides Honors dorm, but every State U has Honors dorm, the same as every Ivy has its "party" and "slacker" crowd. Yes, just as kids got kicked out of Ivy if they do not perform, the same here, they get kicked out of selective program at State U if they do not perform. I wonder for comparison, when they get kicked out of Ivy? D's cut of is GPA=3.45, falling below will result in automatic dismissal from the program. Keeping in mind that average grade on last Organic Chem. test was 63% and 50% is a failing grade, I do not see how these kids can afford to be slackers. In fact, they do not have time for "party" at all, there is reguiremnt of volunteering and other EC's, most have Minor in addition to Major and GPA requirement include all classes. Maybe % of "slackers" is higher at State U, but why we need to be concerned? They keep to their own crowd, they academically and physically exist pretty much in separate worlds.</p>
<p>??? Can't some people both work hard and party hard? Why are they seen as mutually exclusive?
-for people who do not have time to party, they are mutually exclusive.</p>
<p>Frankly, your daughter's college experience sounds like a grind to me. When my daughter (Rice grad) was considering a state university which had a leading program in her major, she specifically did NOT want to live in an honors dorm. My point here is that there are lots of "right" choices and as we have been saying all along, it is a matter of fit.<br>
Miami- you can't generalize about the environment at a state university by focusing on this small, elite program your daughter is in.<br>
To me, one of the benefits of a state university is the fun athletic scene. That would be a big part of the college experience. I would not choose a state university and then want to isolate myself from the majority of the students/student life.</p>
<p>MomofWildchild: Not all honors kids at state Us are isolated. My s is in a good honors college but, for the most part, does not "hang" with other honors students. He enjoys his honors classes even though they're more challenging but appreciates having a few on his schedule that aren't as difficult. He goes to lots of parties. He does well in his classes and is involved in ECs. He loves going to football games. He mixes with other kids at his STATE U but they're not all slackers.
He will have money in the bank when he graduates (a saved scholarship - not a small amount). And he has studied abroad...we could afford it since his college cost are so low.
He's not crazy about his major right now. so trying something different in grad school is started to appeal to him. Good grades, good test taking skills, and money in the bank will help him there.<br>
So all in all, it has worked out well. We got lucky - with an good option at a low price. I have no problems with folks who want to shell out more for a pricey school. But, IMO, you should go in with eyes wide open about what the cost of college may mean to your retirement goals. I don't want my son worrying about me when I'm 80. I want to have enough money saved up to NOT be a burden on him. Just my two cents...</p>
<p>^^ I WANT my son to worry about me when I'm 80! He SO owes me! :) (knowing daughter will probably be stuck with the task...)</p>
<p>OK..worry was the wrong word. I don't want him to support me financially. Lots of visits with the grandkiddies, taking me to the doc when I'm sick maybe, having me out for dinner.
When I get REALLY sick though, I don't want him feeling that he has to take me in. I want to be able to pay for help or find a suitable place to live.
Maybe I would feel differently if I shelled out 200K for college?</p>
<p>^^ We shelled out so much for high school (for reasons that are somewhat unique to our particular situation) that college is just the final miles..... I want to be independent in my old age and plan to be (oh wait, all our investments just tanked....), but there easily could be a time for payback!</p>
<p>You can believe in what you want. Nobody is isolated, they are all into going to games (school is very big in Hockey), working out at awesome rec. center, club sports, sorority events, working, volunteering ...tons of friends, having grand time but not within havily drinking nightly partying crowd. Just like anywhere else, they choose their crowd and Honors dorms are great, moving to awesome newly built College Suits next year, which are appartments off campus, built for upper classmen.</p>
<p>"They keep to their own crowd, they academically and physically exist pretty much in separate worlds."</p>
<p>Sorry- I must have misunderstood your comment.</p>
<p>miamidap - actually that is also what I see at my sons honors college. It's very mixed. Some hang with the honors crowd only and are a bit "nerdy" (a small proportion), many hang out with honors college kids but also mix with the larger state U. Others like my s - found other groups to hang with. There are some heavy partying honors college kids though...not all are angels for sure. I think it's a flexible model that works for most kids. But I would say it helps to be a motivated student - or there is some risk that you will be dragged down by that bottom 25% at the larger school. It's very rare to see that though given the selection standards for the college.</p>
<p>"They keep to their own crowd, they academically and physically exist pretty much in separate worlds."</p>
<p>I am sorry for not being clear that I meant that kids who understand that they are at college to learn their future profession keep separate from those who are there to party their heads off. I did not mean that they seat in their dorm rooms studying all the time. There are tons of them and their are having good time. </p>
<p>I still do not understand the general perception of state U student body comprised of hard partying gang and geeks who imprison themselves in their dorms. Did anybody actually have state u experience or this perception is a product of wild imagination?</p>
<p>You are misinterpreting what we are saying. I actually did go to a state U (Big Ten)as did my husband and both of our kids applied to my alma mater as well as one to another state U (safety). I also have a stepson who attended one of the better state universities in the country, so I am well-versed. There is no doubt that an excellent education can be obtained, but the overall peer group is simply not comparable. This does not matter at all to some students/families, and there may be many factors that would lead to this not being a top priority (as I said, my personal view is that for engineering and perhaps pre-med a state school can serve one very well). What some of us on this thread are saying is that for our kids, the overall quality of the peers, the smaller classes, and some of the opportunities offered by a private school make it worth the expense.<br>
One of my kids happens to be somewhat of an elitist snob, and he requires a very high level of intellectual and social stimulation. Public school was not going to work for him from preschool forward. I don't pretend to judge what is right for someone else's kids, but I sure found out what was right for my own. He is actually considering a state university law school (when the time comes) but that's an entirely different animal (and also his own dime).</p>
<p>Just an FYI...needing high levels of intellectual and social stimulation are one thing, being an elitist snob is another.</p>
<p>I went to a state U and there were LOTS of big-time party animals there. Didn't see the geeks though. That said, there are plenty of privates that have a party reputation - so it's not unique to publics.
Re elitist slobs...I live near a bunch of them right now. Some are even my friends! And that bunch of folks think we are crazy for sending our son to the pedestrian state U.
Now, I don't think THEY are crazy for going private. But these folks have money. No major hardships. Going into huge debt or bankrupting your retirement for a "dream" school... now that's something to really think about.</p>
<p>Yeah, I know. He's getting over it. :) Unfortunately, his college is populated with such people and he fits in fine. They poke fun at themselves, at least.</p>