<p>I've been thinking about your topic for days now. I first I thought you were being disingenuous, i.e. you really were putting pressure on your son but was blaming it on the GC! Then I realized I have been in the same position for years. My son has been in the "gifted" program since first grade, taught himself to read, is a sweet adorable kid, now finishing 9th grade. Never less than an "A" in every class. Signed up for honors chem, honors trig/calc, AP euro, and honors all else for next (sophomore) year. Yet, without even having spoken to a guidance counselor, and just by reading this board, I can see how to outsiders he is not special as he is to me! He is a very earnest and serious student, yet he many not have, in the end, the EC's or "hook" that other students have. So he will go so a good college somewhere, if not top twenty, and continue to learn and achieve, and live his life. Not such a bad deal.</p>
<p>What national math contest was this?
AMC.</p>
<p>Well, I agree that what your GC told you may seem on the extreme side of things. However, if you're talking about the Ivy pool she may have a good point. Your son is no doubt a very talented and exceptional kid but the thing is, so are almost all of the other 20,000+ seniors who apply every year. Maybe doing something to "stand out" doesn't necessarily mean win a gold at the olympics or finding a solution to the energy crisis, but he does need a hook. Not more achievements but something that makes the achievements he already has shine more brightly. For example, two students applying for one spot at Harvard are both class president and valedictorian. If one student accomplished all this while living at the Salvation Army and taking care of his drug addicted mother, it will mean more than the val. who has lived the last four years of his life at a comfy boarding school. It may not seem fair to those who have lived normal middle class lives, but that's the way it is and who's to say the adcomms are wrong for doing it that way?</p>
<p>I like some of what your GC said. It sounds to me as if you've got a very smart son. He's coasting. He knows it. GC knows it. He wants to slow down and take an easier schedule. The GC knows that if he does that, he's closing certain doors that will not re-open. I suspect she thinks that if he does this, along around fall of his senior year in high school, HE's going to regret it. He's going to say "Why did they let me do this?" If you think that kids don't do that--well, I know several who did just that. They turned around and said, "I'm really unhappy about where I'm going to go to college and I really wish I'd worked a little harder so I could go somewhere better. Why didn't my parents/teachers/counselors MAKE me?" </p>
<p>I SUSPECT the "you're not going to stand out" speech was addressed more to him than to you--she's trying to light a bit of a fire under him. </p>
<p>But when you post the actual classes he WANTED to take, I question the advice. My own kid dropped foreign language after 10th grade. Technically, at that point, kid had three years of foreign language. I was REALLY upset about it, but the kid was adamant and that was that. Well, it was a good decision in retrospect. Kid loaded up with stuff kid loves--which did NOT include foreign language-- and the old gpa jumped--not only because foreign language wasn't bringing it down but because there's only so much my kid will study and without having to devote a disproportionate share to foreign language, everything improved. </p>
<p>One solution you might offer--why not ask your son if he'd be willing to go to summer school this year for foreign language if doing that would mean he'd get to take two sciences next year? Of course, see if the school will buy this. But even if it won't...getting a high enough score on the SAT II in that language or maybe taking a CLEP and doing well would probably satisfy colleges that he "really" has enough foreign language.</p>
<p>My son is pulling a 99 average in the foriegn language. That's actually a few points higher than his science/math grades.</p>
<p>He won't do school over the summer. He wants to be outside in camp.</p>
<p>I'm going to post another thread in a couple of days of trying to communicate with him. Like offering him all sorts of things to do in the summer, when the only thing he tells me that he really wants to do is nothing.</p>
<p>
[quote]
As long as you are aware that many colleges, and they include places well below the level of HYP, rank a rigorous curriculum as the very first priority in factors affecting acceptance, then there are no right or wrong answers here.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>!!!456789!</p>
<p>I have just read Xiggi's quote of your son in post #62 ["And while I may have the brains to get into the ivy's, I don't know if I have the heart."] and your own comment in post #65 ["They felt the language was a more important resume builder than junior year physics. The GC is the professional, and I felt we had to listen to her." "I think I am right to push him. But it saddens me now to see him so resigned." "So I walk a line between pushing him to take courses that will challenge him, and one subject (language) that he hates but that will help keep his options open"]</p>
<p>It all makes me feel sorry for both you and your son that you are being pressured so hard to conform. If your son drops foreign language in favor of more science, he will still have plenty of options. Down the line he will find that there are some schools with very stringent admission requirements that will not be open to him -- but there will still be plenty of options, and his stronger-than-typical science background will be a decided advantage at some schools. </p>
<p>In fact, sometimes deviating from the typical path is what draws attention. You will not make your son more competitive by boxing him in. You will just make him more typical. </p>
<p>My own recent experience with my daughter, where we had to drop some schools from her college list simply because she did not have the required amount of math, is that the colleges that were very stringent about course requirements were actually the one a notch below the very most selective, which seemed to take a more holistic view. </p>
<p>I know you want the best for your son, but what you see as "pushing" I see as "limiting". Instead of allowing him the ability to really pursue his passions, his school is cutting him off & redirecting, and as much as the GC says she want him to "stand out".... I think she is making it harder.</p>
<p>If he and you were counting on Ivy admissions, then probably your GC's advice would be sound. The kid at my daughter's high school who has done everything the standard way ( valedictorian, class president, lots of APs, high test scores, maxing out on the school's academic offerings) has been accepted at Harvard & Yale and just about everywhere else he applied. My daughter with her rough edges could not have matched those results-- but she successfully managed to target her apps to the schools that appreciated her quirks. </p>
<p>If you are here looking for advice or comfort, I guess the ultimate answer is that we as parents each have our own style and make our own choices. There are no right or wrong answers. Many people would criticize me for being too lenient and indulgent with my kids. But keep in mind that colleges do really love to see kids with a "passion"; passion takes time; and its hard to develop or demontrate the passion while moving lockstep along with everyone else. </p>
<p>As long as you and your son are following the GC's "excellent" advice, your son is missing out on whatever doors would be opened if he elected to forge his own path. You don't know what those door would be --the downside of letting your kid march to the beat of his own drummer is that you lose the benefit of others' experiences -- but I think you also are giving up the opportunity to maximize his individual potential. </p>
<p>Please don't take this as criticism. You asked for advice, and I think a lot of us are sensing ambivalence and mixed messages from you. I can assure you that I felt similar ambivalence about many of my daughter's choices-- I just have a more hands off parenting style. I see myself as a kind of safety net there in case the kid gets in serious trouble, but not as someone whose job it is to prop the kid up every step of the way.</p>
<p>LooseCannon--when you say he "won" the AMC, what do you mean, exactly?</p>
<p>I completely concur with Calmom, re "limiting". I wonder why this is all so precious to people, and why they can't allow their children the latitude to find themselves and their own interests! Guess I am more of a hands off parent too, but then again, I care that my children are passionate about what interests them, not what interests me.</p>
<p>I'd also advice dropping the language for another science. That would impress Rensaleur/mit and other top sci schools. Your son would be happier with classes he likes.
A boy I know took his NMF award to honors program in state U, so he would also have time to pursue music, his other interest. its a balance</p>
<p>I just thought I'd throw in a comment about my son's experience. He loves science and math, and though good at his english classses, just didn't see the point. I knew he'd never be a humanities guy when he told me that the trouble with his english class was that there wasn't a correct answer. So, we let him take a slightly less rigorous english series through high school, and he never took AP English. He did, however, take six years of lab science (including AP Bio, AP Chem and AP Physics), and BC Calculus. His essay was about some research he did, and his EC's supported his interest in science. There's just no way I could have (or would have wanted to) change him into someone's idea of a well-rounded student. His main EC was music, so he wasn't completely narrow in his interests, but I think that what came across was his passion for science. I think Calmom has made some very good points above.</p>
<p>You have to get realistic about the reality that stupendous young people are rejected from the top 20 plus schools in droves.
Read the rejection threads for a little orientation. Ouch! Not a Fairness game.
That said, your Son is Fantabulous and I agree as a parent it is part of your job to not get sucked into Crazy World and to allow him to be his age and meet challenges of his own pace and choosing.<br>
My S had great outcomes and a waitlist with no more than you have now. The secret..thoughtful essays, good references but most of all a reality view of college admissions and a balanced list that included Match schools in the top fifty schools in the US. Attach to your Match and all will be well. Really visit and appreciate Match colleges and visualize a future there. Admission to the Reach schools cannot be counted on and should be considered gravy. Also..don't forget to be realistic about money when making up that list. Merit money is for the top applicants only and also requires a realistic expectation viewpoint.</p>
<p>mstee,
If the AMC is handled at the OP's sons school the way it is at my kids school, there are 2 tests- the AMC10 and the AMC12. He'd have takent he AMC10. There is always a top scorer for the test in each grade. At my kids school, the 9th and 10th graders take the AMC10 and the 11th and 12th graders take the AMC12. I am guessing the OP's son got the highest score on the AMC10 of the 9th and 10th graders at his school.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>That was the thrust of my question too, which still hasn't been answered. If the student in question is on the list of AMC 10 or AMC 12 perfect scorers </p>
<p>or on the list of USAMO qualifiers </p>
<p>then there is one path for the student, but there is a very different path for the student if top score in the school this year is described as "Winner of National Math Contest." The latter situation is commendable but very commonplace and doesn't stand out AT ALL in a country with more than 20,000 (or is it more than 30,000?) high schools, many of which purport to be "good" or "national known" or "very competitive" high schools. </p>
<p>High levels of math achievement in school can, from time to time, be a big element of building up a "bright, well-rounded kid" profile for college admission, but being a standout takes much, much more, and it will take increasingly more achievement in math to stand out in the next few admission seasons as more and more applicants around the WORLD become aware of how to show their stuff in math. </p>
<p>But what's depressing here, frankly, is the lack of a plan INITIATED BY THE STUDENT. If the student has a plan, and works to execute the plan, the student already IS a standout. That's rare in a high school world of kids doing what they're told and not thinking for themselves outside the school box. And it's better preparation for the future, regardless of what undergraduate school one attends, to practice taking responsibility for one's own path in life, rather than following someone else's half-informed program. </p>
<p>Here's another link that may be of interest, posted here on CC by an MIT admissions officer: </p>
<p>The basic idea is that if the student desires a certain workload in high school, the student is deciding that certain colleges are a better or worse fit. It's FUN for some students to do the things that make them stand out as college students, and no one ever complains about having too much fun. </p>
<p>The news you got from the counselor shouldn't prompt depression, but planning: the STUDENT'S planning. Best wishes to your family as your son finds his path to standing out at what he desires to do.</p>
<p>
[quote]
He actually is very passionate about wrestling. That's why he became the captain as a sophomore.</p>
<p>The math competition he entered as a lark. He did it in order to skip 2 periods at school. I didn't even know he entered until he came home and told me he won. Now his school is pressuring him to join the math team. He has absolutely zero interest in that. I am certain that, unless they make it very easy for him to join (e.g. let him cut class) he's not going to. They actually did tell me yesterday that they are going to try to work something out for him next year.</p>
<p>The design competition I forced him to enter. "Because it would look great on a college resume." I'm guilty. Its still not over, he still has to compete again next week. I know he would be happier to forget the whole thing. Now his school is also pressuring him. Its good PR for them.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It sounds that Loosecannon is rather forthright about being conflicted. On the one hand, she does not want to push her son:</p>
<p>
[quote]
I'm so sad. Why can't the wrestling, which he loves, be enough? Why isn't it enough for him to be a good kid? Where did I read that teen depression is up? It's our fault.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>On the other, she would like him to attend an Ivy, one close to home. (I'm guessing Columbia):</p>
<p>
[quote]
I wish I didn't feel as if we needed to keep his options open. I wish I could be sure that he wouldn't regret, down the road, that he didn't try to get into a highly selective school.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>
[quote]
Its just that my desire to see him happy "down the road" is not making him happy now. He doesn't understand delayed gratification. He's a kid.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I see these posts as more in the nature of musing out loud than seeking advice.</p>
<p>my son also became clear eyed and interested in college at about age 17 and a half...and then took charge of his own applications and test score goals. I would also describe my son as somewhat introverted, as are many gifted students. Tremendous differences between 16 and almost 18..Never underestimate how well an introverted person can function when the chips are down..they can be amazingly articulate when there is a match between their interests and a college.
My fave article on Introversion and how it impacts the gifted student population to share from Wm and Mary's Gifted Center.
<a href="http://cfge.wm.edu/documents/Introversion.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://cfge.wm.edu/documents/Introversion.pdf</a></p>
<p>marite--I think you may be right. More than anything, this thread seems to be about Mom feeling conflicted about whether pushing her son to do certain things (to make sure that he will be an attractive candidate for certain colleges) is the right thing to do or not. That's what I'm thinking now, after having read this and thought about it for a few days.</p>
<p>I have given a lot of info, and I don't want to be much more specific, in the interest of privacy.</p>
<p>My son was the high scorer in his school in the AMC. His score did qualify him to move on to the next level, but I don't know what those results were. </p>
<p>He was not on the list of the two links above. HOWEVER, he IS on the list of semi-finalists for the other contest, where there where there were 13,000 competitors, and about 50 semi-finalists. I don't want to be more specific. </p>
<p>This is not about the contests that he's winning/competing in. This is about my consternation that this very special kid (at least, to me) doesn't seem to be special to anyone else (that's an exaggeration .. he's special to everyone who knows him. But you know what I mean).</p>
<p>I too, have been thinking about this a lot. Mostly as it relates to his summer plans.</p>
<p>Whenever I ask my son what he wants to do in the summer, he says "Nothing". And he really means it. He wants to stay home and relax. Mom immediately responds, "Its out of the question!".</p>
<p>So his next choice is to work in day camp. He's been working in day camp since he's 13 years old. He has earned a little bit of money each summer. Each summer his earnings have increased.</p>
<p>When he comes home from camp, he pursues an interest. He taught himself high school math when he was in middle school. This summer, in lieu of taking a formal physics course (we are following the advice of the GC), he plans to teach it to himself. </p>
<p>I was thinking: why doesn't this "stand out"? A repsonsible kid who earns a little money each summer. Learning valuable lessons about hard work and responsibility? Gaining the respect of his superiors, who have asked him to come back and work for the third straight year. And taking the initiative to teach himself something new in his spare time.</p>
<p>I think that stands out. It may have to be expressed properly, but I think it paints a very positive picture of a nice, responsible young man. </p>
<p>His GC says this doesn't make him stand out. She wants him to do an INTEL project next summer. I know he won't do that. But I think his work is valuable. What's wrong with working, and then coming home and reading, learning, and thinking?</p>
<p>He doesn't have to be over-programmed. He's over-progammed enough at school. I, too, had been trying to push him to do something "interesting" for his summers. But I decided to back off. Working builds character. Not only is there nothing wrong with it, it is to be respected.</p>
<p>Loosecannon:</p>
<p>I totally sympathize with your son not wanting to do something academic during the summer. And it should not have an effect on his college chances. My older S attended a music camp for four summers but was not/is not an outstanding musician. My younger son could not wait for summer to roll aroung so he could go to academic camps. Different kids, different paths (and they're both special to me, too!).</p>
<p>Kudoes for wanting to teach himself physics. What else should the GC want? Next year, he can take the SAT-II Physics or even the AP Physics IF he wants, and that would be impressive on any transcript.
As for the Intel project. don't push it. He may mature greatly over the next few months, be more focused on his studies--or not. Then would be the time to decide whether to do the Intel project or not. Not now.
Let him take the lead. Otherwise, you will have a stressed and resentful kid before the end of high school.</p>
<p>Loosecannon--I agree with you! For what it's worth, I think you are on the right track here. A smart, responsible, reliable kid, and sweet too, didn't you say. Truly, that is outstanding. I believe that the colleges he applies to will see it too.</p>