"How did HE Get In?"

Parents Forum
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<p>lookingforward, I am happy to agree with you, to the extent that you are saying that the admissions offices go by the picture “the kid” presents in the application. Also, it goes without saying that an admissions cohort consisting entirely of physics majors would not go over well anywhere (even though that that sounds like Utopia to me).</p>

<p>However, I take issue with the few admissions personnel who claim that they can assess the <em>applicant</em> better than those who have known him/her for many years. Stanford (specifically) used to do this. I doubt that the people at Stanford were alone.</p>

<p>Of course the admissions personnel can assess the application better than community members who can’t see the application (pending the patenting and marketing of bovertine’s telepathy device).</p>

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<p>In the privacy part of the common app, there is a box to check whether you waive the right to see the recs. Our GCs recommend the students sign it and waive the right to see so the schools know they are getting an ‘honest’, not sanitized version.</p>

<p><a href=“https://www.commonapp.org/CommonApp/Docs/DownloadForms/2013/2013TeacherEval1_download.pdf[/url]”>https://www.commonapp.org/CommonApp/Docs/DownloadForms/2013/2013TeacherEval1_download.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>^^^
Thanks for the info Jandj</p>

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<p>Since my statement got buried in my other blather: Students locally cannot see their recommendations. </p>

<p>Please correct this if it is wrong, but I believe that even if the student does not waive the right to see the letters of recommendation, the student technically is not entitled to see them until long after the fact. I believe that some universities interpret this right as applying only to admitted students, whose LOR’s become part of the university student record.</p>

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<p>FWIW, at my older D’s school, the students do NOT see recommendations. They are expected to mail them out in self-addressed, stamped envelopes (which is a good thing kids around here still know how to write an address and what a stamp is for). These envelopes are sealed with special tape printed with the school name and a phrase about not being tampered with. If the tape is broken, the college would know the kids looked at the rec.</p>

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<p>Bov, I must have heard you calling. Leapt to my laptop, since the cell is a bear to type on.</p>

<p>Yes, nearly all recs are “positive,” if we give that a broad definition. On the low side, you get:" good kid, always has his homework done and adds to class discussions." (Then a sharp detour to discuss ECs.) Much superior is “brilliant, rarely see anything like him” and with some academic examples thrown in, proving, in a sense, the high points. </p>

<p>Then, if Johnny writes a different picture, what do you want adcoms to do? What if there’s another kid in the area who’s, frankly, better than your friend, pushed himself beyond prez of debate, two sports? What if Johnny comes across as empty-headed in his own writing? Smug or juvenile? And there are thousands of other kids who have a better sheen?</p>

<p>The shame is that these apps are written by 17 year olds, with no experience in this sort of construction. Maaaaybe they wrote a little resume summary for a summer job. I actually think they should get some help with perspective- not high cost/dubious value pro help, but the sort a clued-in adult can give. </p>

<p>As for Stanford: like Yale and others, if you read their web sites, it’s not that hard to figure what sort of kids they like. (It’s one of their former adm directors who railed against this notion hs kids can have “passions.”) </p>

<p>Btw, I love reading STEM apps. I like the personality. Lots of them have pushed themselves, have vision, experiences- and friendships and activities. And, my gawd, wit. But, you can’t compare the whole pool based on what we know of one kid in a hs. </p>

<p>Yes, it can matter which teachers write the LoRs. Sometimes, you wanna shout, why is this STEM using French and the Band teacher? Why NOT a sci or math teacher?! Because that teacher wrote the blowout rec for another college? Because that teacher really didn’t like Johnny? or because Johnny wasn’t thinking? </p>

<p>Technically, waiving rights to see the rec allows the teacher to be less guarded in the writing. Whether the teacher shares it or not, who knows? We don’t focus on that check box.</p>

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<p>My son, had the same teacher for 3 classes junior year and currently for two classes senior year. He wanted to use him for a LOR, but was told not to because he didn’t teach a core subject. Didn’t make any sense to me at all as this teacher knows him the best, but we followed the advice given and used two core teachers to provide recs. My son did waive his rights, but also saw his LORs. The teachers didn’t have any issues sharing them and the GC works with the high achieving students at the end of their junior year on the LOR. I am sure that the process varies by school and teacher.</p>

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<p>lookingforward, what exactly do you mean when you say “you can’t compare the whole pool based on what we know of one kid in a hs”?</p>

<p>Virtually everybody knows more than one kid. What kind of comparison are you writing about?</p>

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<p>There are often a number of factors you won’t ever have access to (i.e. teacher evaluations/recommendations, interview results, etc.), so you can’t just try to compare something like SAT/ACT score or GPA to evaluate collge candidates. Some colleges place significant weight on extra-curricular involvement or leadership during h.s. as well.</p>

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<p>xiggi - </p>

<p>"1. It is the best and easiest crutch to boost your GPA
2. It is the best and easiest crutch to boost your ranking
3. It is the best and easiest crutch to grab a seat among the top 7-10
4. It is the best and easiest crutch to earn an auto-admit into UT at Austin
5. All the above "</p>

<p>Other than the fact the State of Texas deems IB diploma to warrant 24 credits at their colleges, how is this any different than the AP curriculm?</p>

<p>Frankly, I am annoyed that the schools think TOK merits no GPA based on the amount of time kids spend on it and spending 3 semesters.</p>

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<p>After my younger son got into U of Chicago early some kids asked him to look at their essays. He quickly learned to just give advice because the essays were so much what students thought the admissions officers wanted and reflected so little of what they were really like. No matter how much he’d say, don’t be afraid to be yourself, it’s okay to show your sense of humor, it’s okay to be a little bit self-deprecating, they just didn’t get it. </p>

<p>As to the issue of letters of recommendations. My kids waived their rights. I know my older son’s GC showed him her letter, but I never saw it. He said it seemed fine to him. I know she liked him and he had impressed her - not easy to do in a school where each GC has a couple hundred students. We also saw one of his outside letters way after the fact when he was up for a local scholarship and this professor asked us to rewrite his original letter to fit the scholarship requirements. Younger son saw one of his teacher recommendations again because the teacher showed it to him. I got told more or less what it said.</p>

<p>I think it’s fine for us to think one kid is a better candidate than another, but to also realize that their are institutional needs for another one to get chosen. My younger son for example had a pretty significant advantage at Vassar just by being male.</p>

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<p>I have created a similar device, patented in Missouri, but still working with a team of neuroscientists on the edit feature, which involves “unthinking.”</p>

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<p>QM, I’m referring to the CC thought that some kids we know are so superior that it’s got to be a mistake if they aren’t admitted to that low% college. We forget there are other high schools in a town, others in the area, etc. And that what makes one kid seem so worthy, in our view, may be pretty much the same as what thousands of others bring to the table, in the wider context. Or, not as great as what others offer.</p>

<p>So, Bobby is amazing. But, there can be lots of kids like him to choose from. Ime, as each new app is started, there’s a desire to like him (academically, socially and personally,) really like this kid and go to bat for him. (And multiple takes are involved, not just one harried adcom.) But, especially within a sub-area, there’s a limit to how many can get a seat, while remaining fair to the rest of the area and the need for geo diversity. Geo diversity is often what means both of Sally’s OP sample kids couldn’t get the admit.</p>

<p>I joke that it was a mistake D1 idn’t get into the Ivy she applied to. As far as I am concerned, she would have been a dream for profs to work with.</p>

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<p>D only got to see one of her recs. He talked about her “sarcastic sense of humor”, which I’m not sure was a positive but it certainly stood out.</p>

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<p>Running the numbers—if Harvard only accepted students from the US, so 50 states plus DC, that would be about 33 kids from each state. Now, there are roughly 730 high schools in each state-just breaking down total number of high schools (public and private) divided by 51-one student out of every 22 or so high schools would enroll at Harvard. Not sure what the yield rate would be but there is also a 12% international population there or so. Obviously very rough data but basically one student from every 3rd high school is going to attend an Ivy league school. Look at the 2 high schools closest to your school–which school will send the Ivy kid? Yes, Bobby is amazing, but so are Suzi, Julie, Sam and Eric from the neighboring schools…</p>

<p>I stand by my theory that they have a set criteria that if a student gets past that, whatever that criteria is, the ad comms put all the kids’ apps on a wall and toss darts. If a dart lands on your app, big envelope, if not, sorry…</p>

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<p>“QM, I’m referring to the CC thought that some kids we know are so superior that it’s got to be a mistake if they aren’t admitted to that low% college. We forget there are other high schools in a town, others in the area, etc. And that what makes one kid seem so worthy, in our view, may be pretty much the same as what thousands of others bring to the table, in the wider context. Or, not as great as what others offer”</p>

<p>Exactly. With 30,000 hs in this country, I think it reads as arrogant to assume that your hs “should” have sent at least one kid to Harvard, etc. it’s also arrogant to think that your local star is indeed a star in the broader context of what’s out there. Your valedictorian isn’t so special; every school has one.</p>

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<p>“However, I take issue with the few admissions personnel who claim that they can assess the <em>applicant</em> better than those who have known him/her for many years. Stanford (specifically) used to do this.”</p>

<p>The teachers who have known the kid for x years are better at assessing the kid.
However, the adcom is better at assessing what it is the <em>school</em> is looking for, and ensuring a mix of styles, interests, and activities.</p>

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<p>Our valedictorian isn’t so special–there are at least 8 of them in a typical year.</p>

<p>What you are perhaps not taking into account, lookingforward and Pizzagirl, is that I am acquainted with a reasonably large number of the top people who come out of the universities in the sciences.</p>

<p>Granted, I know few of the young scientists who go directly into industry post B.S. But taking into account sabbaticals, where I meet a lot of the grad students in the “top” school where I am on sabbatical (and indeed have an office right next to them); conferences, where one meets and talks with a number of young scientists, in addition to hearing their lecture presentations or visiting their posters; faculty applicant interviews; discussions with the faculty other places; and reading the literature in my field (plus occasional comments I hear that descend to the level of “gossip”), I do actually have a pretty good idea of the range of talent that’s out there. Hilbert space is not a complete backwater!</p>

<p>I never particularly had the feeling that X should have been accepted at Harvard, if X is a STEM person, although it would be nice if it happens/ed. However, I think that I have a good enough perspective on the field to say without hesitation that X should have been admitted to MIT.</p>

<p>(Side: I am not hung up on STEM, nor am I hung up on MIT–I use these examples because they fall within my professional range of experience.)</p>

<p>The only way that X did not deserve to be admitted to MIT is that somehow, many astounding people start at MIT with an interest in science, and they all disappear (one way or another) between the time they start as MIT freshmen and the time they should be interviewing for faculty positions (or even doing poster presentations at national meetings, as grad students).</p>

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<p>Re Steve MA’s post #395, I think it would be quite helpful to people in forming a realistic picture of application odds, if the colleges released data on the number of students admitted from each state. One can sometimes locate data on the number enrolling from each state, but because of multiple admissions of some of the top applicants, it is hard to know what the multiplier should be between “enrolled” and “admitted.” Also, the multiplier is likely to vary from state to state.</p>

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<p>We were talking high school. I think, sure, you can look at a kid in college and ask, why is he here, not somewhere bettter? But again, there’s such a wealth of factors in getting admitted to a highly competitive school, from his own app to local competition to the sheer number of kids an MIT has to turn away.</p>