<p>It seems to me that the single best “cultural” plus factor a US medical student could have these days is fluency in a second language, preferably Spanish. Having what used to be called “bedside manner” and some ability to make calming small-talk with patients about something other than medicine is also a plus, and likely what old-school gentlemen doctors were looking for.</p>
<p>I think you’re spot-on, SomeOldGuy (did you used to use the screen name Schmaltz?). </p>
<p>However, there is no SAT section on how to make calming small-talk with patients, so it must not be very important.</p>
<p>
I’m OK with medical schools looking at applicants’ SAT Spanish Subject test scores.</p>
<p>I don’t need my doctor to have humility (I understand arrogance/god complex is needed in a good surgeon) or gratitude. I do hope they have kindness and compassion or else they make poor doctors.</p>
<p>Good one about SAT Spanish test score Beliavsky. :p</p>
<p>Probably useless for me to say, in this maelstrom of misinfo, but one can be sensitive to differences and still set expectations. Cobrat may be seeing shadows where it’s not necessarily so. Whether or not qm agrees.</p>
<p>And they do now work on bedside manner. Part of cert.</p>
<p>Re: Southern gentleman physician seeks similarly cultivated young residents.</p>
<p>If the student himself grew up in a group that was genuinely “less privileged,” then he is unlikely to speak about his interest in “people who may be less privileged” in the same way that a person from a wealthier family would (albeit, a compassionate person).</p>
<p>I don’t know, Pizzagirl, but I have the impression that you had a relatively advantaged background. Do you have acquaintances who grew up in the lower middle class? Can you tell? You seem rather negative about “strivers,” but I am not sure how you define that term. I know that Paul Fussell’s book Class was written tongue-in-cheek, but I think there are many class indicators that are not erased by the end of med school.</p>
<p>There may be some that are never erased: Last fall, I was walking in Chicago with a friend of mine who grew up in a family that was unquestionably <em>Upper</em> class. We were crossing Michigan Avenue in an area where there is a pedestrian island in the middle. We reached the center, and I hesitated. Friend said, “Oh, I think we can make it across.” So we started across. Or rather, I started to scurry across. At some point, I became aware that my friend was no longer beside me. When I reached the far curb, I looked back, and saw her crossing serenely, about 12 paces back. (I suspect that people who are well-off do not scurry.)</p>
<p>I suspect that people who do not scurry get smooshed.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>How about not being able to volunteer much/at all because one has to use all free time other than studying to hold down one or more part-time jobs to support oneself through college and/or family? </p>
<p>To some extent, it’s similar to the issue some clueless upper/upper-middle class folks I’ve read about and heard firsthand utter, “Why can’t [insert profession requiring much costly education/technical training] work for low-cost/practically free” when doing so will mean the individual can’t meet basic living expenses unless they’re independently wealthy. </p>
<p>An example are Legal Aid foundation lawyers who barely made $20k/year in NYC pre-2008 according to some partners/senior paralegals I’ve worked with when undergrad/law school and NYC living expenses are such that one needs to have a trust fund or otherwise be independently wealthy to make working such positions economically feasible. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Several doctor friends have mentioned the lack of a good bedside manner issue among many doctors is a product of the highly cutthroat nature of med school admissions over the last 20-30 years. </p>
<p>When you’re at the point where you need a minimum of a 3.6 GPA in all your core pre-med courses, reasonably high MCAT scores, minimal volunteering requirements, many of those pre-med courses are weedout courses by design at many colleges, and more to even have a feasible prospect of being a viable med school candidate…too many survivors are more likely to be extremely competitive driven winner-take-all Type-A personalities. </p>
<p>Add to that the fact many are attracted to the field for the wrong reasons(i.e. I’m gonna be rich!) and the spirit of service and centeredness on patient care suffers. </p>
<p>From what I gathered from those doctors’ comments and from hearing about and seeing a bit of my now MD HS friends’ experiences with the pre-med madness in undergrad, most of them would probably argue that med school admissions need to be more holistic and less numbers driven than it has been.</p>
<p>QuantMech^Probably true in both directions. Growing up in severely disadvantaged situations can leave scars that remain for life.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I grew up with a working-class background in a 2-bedroom rowhouse in a major east coast city. My mother’s father was a steel factory worker who worked a second job to make ends meet. My father’s father ran a mom-and-pop deli but was not very good at it, to the point where my father went hungry as a youth. My father got a GED and then went into the service (Vietnam); he did attend college afterwards on the GI bill but did not graduate. My mother attended night school and then went back to college when I was, myself, in college and no one could have been prouder. As for my family, my father was not book-smart in the same way that I am, but had an outstanding eye for color / fashion and sales and worked his way up to becoming the president of a fairly well-known apparel company. So by the time I was in college, I was from an upper middle class / full pay background, but I assure you much of my childhood wasn’t, and I know exactly where I come from.</p>
<p>Qm know many of these top performing underprivileged kids? Their compassion and service are often far ahead of your stereotype. At the level we have been talking of. Don’t assume.</p>
<p>Many of you are just not up on how Med school runs today. Diversity, sensitivity and mandated Doctoring which is also reflected in the OSCEs. C’mon. How long can a discussion run on what some friends experienced or what some think may be going on?</p>
<p>You don’t have enough faith and confidence in low SES kids if you can make sweeping generalizations .</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>No, it’s not similar at all, cobrat. I recognize that you are very sensitive to any perceptions of socioeconomic class, and I recognize that you turn a lot of unrelated topics into “oh, those uppity people expect everyone to curl their pinkies when they drink tea,” but that is not in the LEAST what we are talking about. We are talking about demonstrating compassion and kindness and a servant’s heart and all kinds of things that a) make good doctors and b) are not measured by SAT’s or other standardized tests, which of course throws someone like Beliavsky for a loop because how do you know if someone possesses an attribute if you don’t have a standardized test to measure it?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Well, of COURSE. That’s the whole POINT, cobrat. This particular man – who was courtly, old-school but also one of the nicest gentlemen you’ll ever meet, and I use the word gentleman for a reason – wanted to see in an interview that the person he was interviewing for his residency position WASN’T just in it for the money, but demonstrated other qualities. I SAID that, and you went off on your “well, I guess they’re just going to demonstrate upper middle class sensibilities and use that as code for keeping out the riffraff” when nothing of the sort was either said or implied.</p>
<p>I wasn’t downplaying the compassion and service of the students from poorer families, lookingforward, I was talking about their manner of speaking about it, and their probable manner of interaction with the cultivated Southern gentleman. They wouldn’t be talking about “serving the less advantaged;” they might be talking about serving people like themselves.</p>
<p>Why are you so negative about “strivers” and “wannabes,” then, Pizzagirl? (Both your terms from other posts, as I recall.)</p>
<p>Actually, anyone interviewing for a residency who gave the impression that he/she was in it for the money would bend the needle on my Stupid-o-Meter.</p>
<p>lol, Agentninetynine, #608. I guess my friend took it for granted that the cars on Michigan Avenue would stop for her (and I think they would, actually), whereas I took it for granted that they would just run me down if I were in their way. :)</p>
<p>Cobrat, where do you get these things? Do you make them up? Legal Aid lawyers were not making barely $20,000 pre 2008 unless by pre you mean decades before.</p>
<p>lookingforward, for some reason you seem to be assuming that I am doubting the hearts of those who grew up in poorer circumstances. I am not. But I am doubting some aspects of their self-presentation.</p>
<p>The medical example probably struck a chord with me for personal reasons. My prom date in high school was the son of a local radiologist. R’sS informed me that he could take me to the prom, but he couldn’t take me to the spring dance at the country club, because I “wouldn’t fit in.” Really! I had long since stopped throwing the chicken bones over my shoulder at dinner!</p>