<p>I would just like to add that I came from a value that did not value education, I paid for a year and a half of college when I was 17/18 and then ran out of money so had to start working - and without a degree, it meant that I could only rise so high in any organization. So I’m lower middle class/upper working class, income-wise, and we have a pretty low EFC. I feel like one thing I’ve learned in this thread is those great schools might send kids off to wonderful careers and good lifestyles, but perhaps with a bit of snobbery, which is shame. It would make me hesitate to send one of my kids to HYPS if I thought they would come out not recognizing the privilege of attending those institutions. </p>
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Don’t worry. It’s only those who don’t attend them who don’t recognize that privilege.</p>
<p>I think most people at HYPMS not only understand very well that it’s privilege, and a good portion (though probably not as many as there should be), come from fairly modest backgrounds.</p>
<p>My kids were incredibly lucky to be born into a family that inherited enough to go to the colleges of their choice, because we parents did not end up in super high-paying careers. </p>
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<p>They are starting with the Harvard Kennedy School to have a required class for teaching that they are privileged.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.salon.com/2014/05/13/students_at_harvards_kennedy_school_will_now_be_required_to_check_their_privilege/”>http://www.salon.com/2014/05/13/students_at_harvards_kennedy_school_will_now_be_required_to_check_their_privilege/</a></p>
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<p>Using that same logic, there is no difference between attending an HYPS and whatever school is number 3000 on the Newsweek ranking since you aren’t barred from a job because you went to number 3000.</p>
<p>I believe there is a difference.</p>
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<p>Wow. Utter disdain for all of the rest of us in the world who did not attend an Ivy. While I attended a lowly small LAC, and DH only managed a “near-Ivy” for graduate school, we do recognize that there are privileges associated with Ivies. We also recognize that, of those that apply, fewer than 10% are accepted. So we raised our kids to appreciate what they have, rather than yearn for something very difficult to obtain. Hats off to those who get in, and I’ll go to my corner and mourn that I was not accepted at Harvard 30 years ago and therefore my life is meaningless.</p>
<p>It breaks my heart to read posts from so many kids here who are gearing there entire lives around acceptance at an Ivy and who are devastated when it doesn’t happen. I’m all for reaching for the stars, but I also believe in balance, and having a plan B.</p>
<p>Inigo, agree 100%.</p>
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Perhaps that came out too harshly? Perhaps I should have said, it’s only some people who didn’t attend them who have this attitude, while people who actually did attend one of them almost always very much appreciate the opportunity. I’m just tired of all the people who seem to think that anybody who sends their kids to a selective school is some kind of prestige-besotted sap.</p>
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<p>And many of the rest of us are tired of the implications that we are failures as parents because our children either didn’t gain admittance to these highly selective schools, or we failed to save $250,000 per child to pay for their education (because we’re all buying frivolous crap rather than investing in our kids). I know it wasn’t your comment, but an earlier comment to the effect of “I wouldn’t SELL my child for a merit scholarship” is not digested well by those of us who found merit scholarships to be our pathways to a better future. I wouldn’t be in a position to have even $100,000 per kid for college had it not been for the full-tuition merit scholarship I earned. And D is very happy attending her LAC on a merit scholarship. </p>
<p>Look at it this way - a school cannot be “elite” and “privileged” if everyone gets to go. So those of us who are happy with something other than an Ivy are actually helping the status of those who attend an Ivy. You can’t have a 1% without a 99%.</p>
<p>blossom, your examples are extreme and unrealistic.</p>
<p>A kid majoring in classics will for sure have a wider range of opportunities to learn from world-class scholars at University of Chicago than she would at UNH. But she might not have known that classics would become her passion when she was still in high school making the decision on where to go to college. UNH’s classics department may be small, and the professors may not be the leading scholars in the field, but a motivated student can find opportunities to fill in the gaps (study abroad, summer research elsewhere, whatever)–and she is going to have to go on to graduate work if she wants to pursue classics as a career anyway.</p>
<p>My son is another example. He discovered his passion for international politics after arriving at his very small LAC with a very small faculty committed to IR-type classes. So what? He has already competed in a model UN conference and will be studying this summer in Asia, having been accepted to a competitive, fully funded program where he will be learning and living side-by-side with kids from Georgetown, University of Chicago, Northwestern, Middlebury, Pomona, and other schools known for their strength in IR. There are even students from (gasp!) truly unheard-of directionals going, too.</p>
<p>Mom2aphysicsgeek, At one LAC, son asked to speak to a physics prof. They had about 3 classes to offer him.</p>
<p>At son’s small UG, there were multiple research possibilities. At times, he preferred working with a grad student, and they published. He was and is close to the IP in his lab. One thing I liked about his school was that they made possibilities. For example, after the New Orleans disaster, they offered to bring students to NO (geared towards the pre-med ones), and every summer they have a 6 week program at the local hospital shadowing MDs. No one had to fight for these opportunities. </p>
<p>Like MAthmom’s S1, there was a good chance my son would not go on to grad school. He chose his UG because it had his 2 major interests covered. </p>
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But didn’t you just make a good argument for a bright kid to go to Chicago rather than UNH? Wouldn’t it make sense to go somewhere with multiple strong departments (assuming you can afford it)?</p>
<p>@Hunt
That is certainly not my perspective. Some of my favorite people in the world have kids that are grads of MIT and Stanford. If sending our ds to a top school was a financial possibility w/o it impacting our family, we would have loved for him to have that opportunity. However, we absolutely do not believe that his future is going be less optimal b/c he is going to a state school. That is the difference.</p>
<p>Not unrealistic if by that you mean “does not occur in the real world”. I hear it all the time from folks I know in the real world. Kid wants to study Linguistics. Parent doesn’t understand why he/she should have to pay for the kid to go to college since the kid can attend the close by, not flagship U and live at home for very little. Which is fine. Kid takes the two course linguistics series, maxes out, parent is aggravated that kid wants to transfer to the flagship which actually has a linguistics department. Kid number 2 doesn’t know what he/she is going to study, except that it’s more likely to be history/literature/poli sci and not math/engineering. Parent will pay for math/engineering, but not history/literature/poli sci. Kid ends up at a directional majoring in accounting and hoping that he/she can figure out something to do with an accounting degree so he/she never has to work in accounting. Kid number 3 (sibling of kid number 1 BTW) would likely qualify for generous need based aid at a U Penn/Cornell type school. Parents think that only “prestige you know what’s” apply to Ivy League schools, plus they won’t fill out the financial aid forms. Kid ends up at the University of New Hampshire type school which has exactly 4 faculty (one an adjunct) in the field the kid wants to study.</p>
<p>Happens all the time.</p>
<p>I’m a Classics major- I find it amusing that you think we all end up pursuing Classics as a career.</p>
<p>My D. did not apply to a single UG that would not offer her a Merit award and choose to attend on full tuition Merit. None were reach, but one was very small private and it gave her the most. I canno imagine paying for UG especially when considering Graduate school (and most top caliber kids consider Graduate school, as far as I know). There are people with unlimited resources though, but they would not care to justify or not, they just pay whatever using cash.</p>
<p>Bookworm, unless your student had already completed multiple upper level classes in physics during high school (like a minimum of 9), was physics offered as an actual major at that school? </p>
<p>@blossom Not comparing apples to apples. It is not as though S1 (ChemE major) had to go to a school with no Engineering program because it was cheaper. We are talking about equivilent comparisons here. Your comparison reminds me of a book I read in HS about advertising…ads frequently compare their product to nothing. "Biz bleach works better than detergent alone’ - rather than comparing to a similar product. Try comparing to the Classics program at Mizzou. Random choice of flagship state school. They have a solid Classics program and offer PhD. Can you find better programs? Sure. But for the money, Mizzou or Minnesota or any of a number of other fine public institutions that offer good merit aid will be a better value than an Ivy.</p>
<p>fluffy, the problem with your logic is that you are assuming the MIT students were better prepared rather than assuming they were just smarter than you or may have had a better work ethic in college. Don’t get me wrong, MIT is a great school and if it fits in your budget or you can go for free due to low income, that is great. But one need not go to MIT to get into or be successful at any grad school in the country. Being prepared is more about the individual than the school. The school can help but you cannot take an average student and run them through MIT and ‘presto’ you get a great grad school candidate. The difference with MIT and other top schools is simply that they have a higher concentration of high caliber students. You will find more of their grads in graduate programs due to the individual drive and ability, not just because it is a ‘better’ school.</p>
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<p>Yes, of course. My point was that if U of C is not financially viable, or is not a good choice for other reasons (say the kid is expected to stay within a smaller range of home), she can still get a good start in classics (or whatever) at a lot of schools not “known” for excellence in that field.</p>
<p>blossom, again–your example seems extreme (even though you say it happens “all the time”). You are talking about a family that has very rigid ideas about what fields are worth spending any money on and sees college solely as a preprofessional path. I think more often the scenario is “my kid is dying to go to University of Chicago to study classics, but it is going to cost us dearly and potentially jeopardize our resources for the younger siblings and our retirement. Our state flagship has a classics department and is less then half the cost. Plus, he might change his mind about what he wants to study once he gets there. So we aren’t going to indulge him with his dream school.”</p>
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<p>Actually, I was referring to a situation where a course needed for pre-PhD preparation is offered less frequently than the bare minimum of once every two years (which has come up in the context of a prospective physics major asking about schools to attend in these forums).</p>
<p>This has been a big topic of conversation between my husband and I. Here is our story and dilemma. My husband and his brother (7 years older) were the first in their family to attend college. His brother attended Wharton. (his parents, blue collar workers, scrimped and borrowed to pay his full way) By the time my husband graduated HS (valedictorian) there was no money immediately available, so he applied to and was accepted to the Naval Academy, Annapolis. Midway through his first semester, his brother died and he had to drop out and move home to help his parents cope with the tragedy of his brothers death. His second semester he commuted to Rutgers Camden and in the following fall transferred to Rutgers New Brunswick. His parents once again scrimped and borrowed to pay his tuition so he wouldn’t have to work while going to school. In 1978 he graduated #1 out of a class of 15,000 students with a perfect GPA. Meanwhile, I, one of three children, who’s father and grandfather were both graduated from U of Pitt, and was from an upper middle class family, was expected to work three jobs and take out loans to pay for my college with no help from my parents. I attended Rutgers. My one brother joined the marines (and eventually went to Devry U, paid for by the GI Bill) and my other brother also went to Rutgers, worked, took out loans and paid his way. This was not easy for any of us and I feel I missed out on much of the College experience because all I had time to do was work or study…my grades suffered as well. My husband went on to earn his PHD at MIT, and his post doc from Columbia (all on full scholarship). He is now a tenured, “Distinguished Professor” at Rutgers. My brother went on to earn his MBA at RU, and has enjoyed a lifelong career in finance for J&J Corporate New Brunswick and will be retiring next summer at age 55 a very, very wealthy man. The two points I’m making, 1.if you work hard you will succeed probably regardless of where you go to school. 2. Look how two different sets of parents handled the financing of their children’s college. Personally, while I will always love my parents, I will always resent them for being so selfish. The money was there, but they chose to spend it on other things rather than their children’s higher education, a decision I never quite understood considering my father was an educated man. Both of my parents had professional careers. We had a beautiful home with a built in swimming pool. They took flying lessons. They owned a 27 foot cabin cruiser and belonged to a yacht club. They bought new cars every 4 years and took many vacations. </p>
<p>I knew when it was time for my children to go to college, we would pay their way so they wouldn’t have to work. This has been easy to plan for, and because of my husbands position at Rutgers, it was pretty much a given that’s where the children would go. It’s a great University (albeit big) Their tuition is free, a $12,000 benefit of my husbands employment. All we still have to pay for is room, board, fees and books ~$15,000 additional per anum. We have four children and it’s been nonstop education bills since 1999 when my oldest started private HS in Princeton @ $20,000 a year. He graduated in 2007 from the Rutgers Business School in finance, worked 2 years on Wall Street and is now a partner in a start up finance company which is now trading on the stock exchange and is doing very well. It took his younger brother 4 1/2 years to graduate from RU. He has some learning difficulties (ADD) so he took the minimum course load. He now works for Chevron and they will be paying for him to get his Masters at the U of PITT in the fall…so again son #2 is doing very well. Finally, my twin daughters graduate HS in a few weeks. One has already been accepted by the Rutgers Business School and is very excited to follow in her brothers footsteps, while the other, who earned a full merit scholarship into the honors school at Rutgers, will instead attend Brown University with no financial aid awarded. We are not wealthy, so there will be sacrifices. We are going to sell our beach house and we will also be downsizing our primary residence. We have already decided that retirement has been postponed. She has worked so hard—she is brilliant and Brown is perfect for her, still I question the wisdom of spending an additional quarter million dollars, especially considering the success my whole family has had by attending Rutgers. I also know that a PHD is in her future so this doesn’t end after four years. I just don’t think I could live with myself if we don’t do this for her. </p>