<p>Another school approach that works: D’s high school limits AP classes to juniors and seniors only, and limits the kids in most cases to two per year. This means there are plenty of good students in the “regular” classes, which are also fine – and more varied – learning experiences. The policy does create a lot of angst among parents and students who are worried about applying to college with just four AP’s. And yet the school sends kids off to Ivies on a regular basis.</p>
<p>I think it is hard for kids to specialize at such a young age, unless they have a really strong drive to do so. The hard part is, that if they wait and remain generalists until they feel that calling, it could be later in high school, and other musicians who have been practicing many hours for many years, are “ahead.” From your post, it does not sound like your child is headed for a total focus on music- but it can be hard to tell. Still, overall, it sounds smart for her to keep all her options open.</p>
<p>We are lucky in our town to have a school that does not offer that many AP classes. Two of my kids took 5 total each, in the last two years of high school. I share the sentiments expressed about the emphasis on AP classes and standardized testing in general, and the resulting qualitative decline in education. </p>
<p>However, our musician daughter absolutely loved AP European History (essays every week) and it has really given her a good background for music history in college. That said, this same daughter dropped back TWO levels in math- from honors to regular AND back a year, so she could fit music theory in her sophomore year. Our guidance office didn’t make a peep, nor did her parents. She only took 4 classes total in her senior year. But she got into an Ivy college probably because of her demonstrated “passion”. So you really can’t tell what might happen. Basically, to be honest, she did what interested her, what she really wanted to do, and worked hard at it, and did not let concerns about college admissions guide her at all. (Also, I am not so sure that an Ivy is the best place for her. If we could afford it, she would probably be at a conservatory!)</p>
<p>Our other daughter dances. She takes honors courses, but knows she cannot fit in any AP. She barely goes to school at all, to tell you the truth, and is leaving high school for her senior year, to dance on the West Coast. A lot of people on this board have kids like this. I tell her that she is sacrificing a lot, and ask her if she would like to have a “normal” year with her friends in senior year, and if she would like to try some art classes, or maybe do a year as an exchange student etc.etc. and the answer is “I want to dance.” As parent, it is certainly easier to hear this kind of certainty, but even then, it is easy to worry about a 16 year-old who thinks she knows absolutely what she wants to do.</p>
<p>What comforts us is the knowledge that life is really more flexible than our kids are given to believe. College can wait, conservatory can wait, kids can change course, work hard, and get on a new path. I have been taking college classes in my 50’s, which helps my kids see how meanering life can be. </p>
<p>Ideally, we could just all let our kids blossom naturally, without excessive external pressures (though some are unavoidable). But the necessity of practicing for many years, to succeed in music, does kind of change the picture. At least musicians can practice at home: dancers have to travel, in some cases, hours, to the studio to do their thing!</p>
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<p>Herein lies the rub. It may not necessarily be actual practice time, but my experience is that the SERIOUS (capped for emphasis only) music kid, the 24/7, live, sleep, breathe it type will use noin practice time to be studying some aspect of music. Listening to various recordings of a piece you’re working on, studying theory, reading composers or artists biographies, whatever. Some dabble with keyboard or piano, another secondary, or compose. In my definition, it may not be practice, but it is skill building. It all be related.</p>
<p>Mine reads full orchestral scores as a diversion. </p>
<p>If he desires some time “off”, he watches a baseball game or a reads history.</p>
<p>This is the separation and distinction I’ve seen in the students who want it versus the student who NEEDS it.</p>
<p>No real advice here…but it’s a “choices choices” world. DS knew he was going to major in music in college. He took AP courses, but it really didn’t matter what he got on the exams for his GRADES and the colleges only see the AP scores if you send them. He did and got college credit for some coursework. Re: balancing courses…DS dropped foreign language after tenth grade when he took honors Spanish Four. He did not take a math or science course his senior year. He did take statistics, and an independent study in music history. He felt those were more relevant to him.</p>
<p>I should add, DS went to a large private university with a conservatory type music program for undergrad. He had to be accepted to the university academically as well as into the music program via audition. </p>
<p>He DID have to give up a number of school ECs simply because there was a time conflict with youth orchestra and instrument lessons.</p>
<p>I have to say, I’ve truly enjoyed this thread.
My D2 is scheduled for what appears to be a “slacker” senior year, but in reality, she’ll be focusing on what she loves, while fulfilling the remainder of her state requirements. Yes, the child can already cook you a full course meal, but the state says she needs practical arts so she has two semesters of cooking. Gym/health. AP French because she loves the language, and for a vocalist it can’t hurt. Shakespeare for her English req. And then… Strings (back to violin after a hiatus for AP Theory), Electronic Music, Composition and Arranging, Choir, Select Choirs, Voice Lessons…and anything else musical the high school has to offer. She’ll have a blast, and probably work harder next year than any of the previous three because as she will tell anyone who asks - Music is her life. She has indie music on her IPod, along with Joshua Bell and Rene Fleming, healthy doses of arias and MT pieces.<br>
When we were driving to SAT’s yesterday, she was moaning about trying to match her sister’s scores - and I had to reassure her that her focus and talent was every bit as important and valid. I really wish that our schools valued artistic talent and drive the way they do Varsity Letters!!!</p>
<p>Our High School pays the student’s fees for APs, they are required to take the test if they are taking the class. For every passing test, the school gets paid by the state as a reward. It is all about the school’s ranking and the money, not the students.</p>
<p>My S did not know until the beginning of his Senior year that he wanted to study music performance. He knew he wanted to study something that involved music, possibly music business or management, but it was not until he spent last summer immersed in his music that he knew that he wanted to concentrate totally on the performance aspect. </p>
<p>My S’s learning style is not compatible with the way APs were taught at his school. He struggled with the rigidness of the way the classes were taught last year and the mounds of writing required, but he did well on the exams. This year, after much discussion and advice from professionals and ignoring what the academic advisers said, he took only 4 academic classes, 1 being AP Music Theory. We are lucky that his school offers a wide range of Honors level classes that are challenging and the teachers are more flexible. He had a free period for extra practicing and two music classes. Even with this lightened schedule he still had to juggle his time. And of course his music came first. </p>
<p>This light academic schedule paid off, S managed his school schedule and fit in all the time needed to visit schools, take sample lessons and prepare for and attend auditions. He has his last academic project due tomorrow and then will coast for 2 weeks until his last day of class while all his friends are staying up all night to study for their seven AP exams. </p>
<p>We worried that the higher level academic schools would frown on the adjustment in his academic schedule but it didn’t seem to matter. He did well in his classes and they saw that he was focused on what was important to him.</p>
<p>BeezMom, are you kidding me? Not valuing artistic talent? Your school is far, far, away from my D’s in NJ. No such thing here as Strings, AP Theory, Electronic Music, Composition and Arranging. D took the only Music Theory class last year. This year she’s taking Music Technology (the ancient computers must be shared) in a class that includes some “problem” kids trying to satisfy a new arts requirement. Some of them still have an earned grade of only slightly above zero. The only other “academic” music class left is Music Appreciation. She dutifully takes Band every year, which means countless hours supporting a football team whose coaches (and many players) show open disdain for the band. However, participation in Concert Band is forbidden without Marching Band participation. Right - no single reeds, no strings. (Although Woody Allen and his cello in “Take the Money and Run” might be allowed).</p>
<p>There is one band room to be shared by the middle school and high school bands and chorus, and the music tech and appreciation courses. D had Theory in a corner of the auditorium with a chalkboard on wheels and a boombox. She had a group clarinet lesson in middle school about once or twice a month, taught by the band director, who was responsible for all non-singing music in grades 4 through 12. (Sometimes the group lessons were provided in a stairwell). He was not permitted to have a paid assistant. New director has been given the luxury of not having to conduct the elementary band or do middle school lessons.</p>
<p>As a new freshman, D was asked in Sept to play Bass Clarinet. She agreed, but was told the 2 BC’s were out for repair. Oct came and went with no sign of a BC, and in Nov she became nervous about having to play the Dec concert with very little time to learn the instrument. So, we bought her one on ebay. She figured out how to play it and did so for the rest of the year. During sophomore year, still no sign of the either of the school’s BC’s, so she gets stuck on it again because she has the only one in the district. Apparently, there was no money in the budget to pay for the repairs. Fortunately, this year a freshman shows up from a sending district with his own BC. I think the school’s instruments are still in hock.</p>
<p>You don’t know the first thing about “under-valued.”</p>
<p>Dadofclard – My D has also had to pursue her art outside of school. What a luxury it would be to be able to get school credit for it, not to mention the driving time saved!</p>
<p>I have no advice for anyone, but I had to chime in. Our particulars are different (IB/dance vs AP/music), but yea, I hear you about the time and stress involved. D is about to graduate HS, and finally (after 7 years of IB and 14 years of dance) has found the magic formula for getting it all done and staying sane at the same time. Junior year was the worst due to the maximum pressure for grades and the runup to SATs and IB testing (plus girl-drama at the studio). In fact, at one point last year we seriously considered dropping one or the other. I’m glad she didn’t, but at the end of the year I was never so glad for something to be over.</p>
<p>The only answers for us have been: 1) Continuous and agressive schedule management, and 2) Choosing a limited number of passions and pursuing them in depth. High-achiever kids tend to think they should be able to do everything there is to do, and do it better than anyone else. One of my biggest parenting challenges has been trying to get D to chase her own dreams while doing her own best, without continually comparing herself to others.</p>
<p>Dadofclard: our school music is even worse! The only academic music class is music theory, which runs most years, but not all. We have tried to get a music literacy, or music composition class going, but there are no funds. Even worse, the music director (basically a band director, and yes, they also have rehearsals in the stairwell!) actively discourages kids from going to Saturday conservatory programs in the city. Once a kid shows talent, and the family takes the kid outside the school music program, he begins harrassing the student in ways that are subtle and not so subtle, because he thinks they are “uppity.”</p>
<p>That said, the low demands in the school system (not limited to music), leave plenty of time for kids to do their own thing outside of school. Paradoxically, our school population generally includes a few kids who really excel, making All-State and the next step (is it All-Eastern?) in singing, winning state and national composition prizes, and so on. Maybe one kid every two years even goes to a conservatory.</p>
<p>Of course, these achieving kids get no credit at school for their work outside of school, and the parents have to pay for it all. When our daughter applied to schools, we added a music transcript which guidance attached to the school transcript, with a note saying that she had done a lot of music outside school for which she received no formal credit. We did this partly to explain why she only took 4 courses senior year, as I remember. To tell you the truth, and we were not thinking this at the time, but realize now, colleges will think even more highly of a kid working hard at music in that kind of circumstance: going beyond the school and doing the work for no credit and no benefit other than advancing in something they love.</p>
<p>So, regardless of AP’s taken, or music program quality at one’s high school, there are lots of ways to advance musically and have a good shot at a good college or conservatory program. The thing that is unfair is that this requires parents to drive (or public transportation) and to pay, which means that many kids with talent, and with potential talent, never get the chance. That is what bothers me about our school’s music program. My own kids have done fine, but what about that girl with the amazing tone on her clarinet, who just quit band because her parents are not able to support it.</p>
<p>Sorry, this is off topic, but something we see all the time. Talented kids in music, or theater, or art, who are working in the grocery store by junior year, so they can buy a car. I tell them that I miss hearing them sing, and they tell me they are not doing it anymore.</p>
<p>Wow. Violadad, your post really hit me. This is exactly what my son does. I’ve never talked much about it with others except my husband (and my son, of course). That makes me feel more comfortable that S is, indeed, heading in the right direction.</p>
<p>To the OP - My kid took APs because he wasn’t sure what sort of college he would end up in. If he ended up in a university program with a core curriculum, he wanted to be in line to exempt as much as possible. So he had a rough senior year - trying to do 4 APS (econ, statistics, English, physics) while preparing for auditions. Come April, and it’s acceptances, he suddenly realized his APs didn’t matter, and quit studying. I think he got 2s and 3s on most his tests.</p>
<p>Obviously, if he’d known his future, he could have had an easier HS career, but since he didn’t, he had to cover all bases. I don’t know that he really regrets it - he enjoys being able to talk intelligently about subjects outside his area of expertise. And learning to juggle demands is also an education worth having.</p>
<p>DadofClard - sorry to offend, but I meant undervalued in respect to how the football/basketball/cheerleader athletes are supported. Our strings program is only a few years old and you have to have your own instrument - the school owns none. We have a leaky roof over the music rooms while the School Board makes sure that we are putting aside a hundred thousand each year to replace the school astroturf when it wears down. The risers in the choir room are unsafe, but once again, replacing them got cut from the budget.<br>
So, while I agree, we are extremely fortunate to have the program we do, my point still stands that within our school, music gets the short end.</p>
<p>Having come from a public school district with long and continuing strong support of the arts in our schools, I’ll tip my hat to those among you and your kids that are trying to position themselves for undergrad music programs while dealing with stonewalls and roadblocks.</p>
<p>It’s hard enough to do this with a full support system.</p>
<p>Hat’s off to you all.</p>
<p>Compmom,
I feel so much better after reading your post. Seems like we have similar issues.</p>
<p>My D attended a rigorous private school and took mostly honors and APs all through HS. For most of that time, she (and H and me) thought she was headed for a performance major, but she was also very focused on academics, with very strong grades and test scores. After conducting two college parallel searches to be prepared for either possibility (one for performance and one for academics), she finally settled on the academic path. </p>
<p>Her music commitments during HS were outside of school but took up a LOT of time: weekly orchestra rehearsals (4 hours); practice time (2 hrs/day); double-length lessons twice a month with a teacher who lived 135 miles away; summer programs; auditions, competitions, gigs, etc. Sometimes she needed to be excused from classes for an audition or a performance (once for an entire week of school when her youth orchestra made a European concert trip). Her school was flexible and accomodating about absences, but she was still expected to stay on top of her work. Somehow she managed to juggle it all, successfully and at a high level, even though it was stressful at times and often exhausting. </p>
<p>If she’d been a kid who wanted nothing but music 24/7, I think she would have let go of as much as possible on the academic side. But I think, for her, the juggling was possible precisely because she had many varied interests and was actively engaged in and enthusiastic about them all; it wasn’t just “all music, all the time” (that is also why she ultimately decided that a performance major wasn’t the right fit for her).</p>
<p>I think orchestra mom’s post illustrates some good points. One, that some kids really are able to do it all (albeit with some stress). One of my kids just isn’t able to do academics that efficiently, and really did have to choose, and the other two were able to keep their options open by doing the “parallel tracks” she describes, although not quite at the level her daughter did (our school’s academics are not that rigorous, as I have said).</p>
<p>However, even with a kid who CAN do it all, this path may not be worth the stress for some. It really depends. And sometimes burnout shows up a little later, so it can be hard to tell at the time. It seems that, at a certain age, the kids themselves can be our guides. I like to sort of counterargue (as in, are you sure you want to just dance, maybe you would like to hang out, or take more Spanish, or whatever) and when their answers are very certain, it seems like the right course for them.</p>
<p>A second issue for many is how much the family can do, in terms of money, time and travel. For each of my children, I would certainly be willing to do the maximum possible, but there have been years when we also had to watch the family dynamic and make sure, for instance, that driving the dancer to class did not impact the musician, or vice versa, and that there were still times when we were all still together in the house at one time. Ditto with stress: the stress of each individual needs to be manageable by that individual, so as not to impact the family as a whole. This type of concern seems to be an important part of preparing for the future too.</p>
<p>My S2 is finishing up his first year grad school. I happened to call him when he was writing a last minute term paper. The paper was done, but he realized that he was missing some details for noting his references. He laughed a little and said, “I might just do without and settle for a B.”</p>
<p>I said I wished he’d learned back in high school how to settle for B’s, and he said, “So do I, Mom. So do I.”</p>
<p>Hmm, lot of good posts, I think they hit the nail on a lot of the issues with balancing school and music.</p>
<p>In the ‘serious’ music world I have been thrown into with our son (who, Violadad, you described to a T, music to him isn’t a want, it is a need…he lives and breathes it, he is a promising violinist but in his case, the violin is expressing the music that he so loves…reading scores? Listening to tons of versions of various pieces on Itunes (ya should see my bill…)? Reading books and stories of music and musicians? I’ming me excitedly to listen to a streamed music from a station, they are going to play “X”?..yep, yep, yep:) a lot of kids face this problem.</p>
<p>It varies from instrument to instrument, kid to kid, but when it requires the kind of practice and dedication the violin, as one example, seems to require a lot of practice (4-5 hours a day), and that just ins’t possible with school. My son was attending a high level private school, and it was just too much. The act of getting up early, going to school, spending the day with various things during the day, coming home, doing homework (several hours worth, and my son is not slow with doing schoolwork), and then trying to find time to practice had him going to be very late, plus it is almost impossible for him to do academics after multi hour practice or vice-versa, it didn’t work. Plus, there are also the committments that schools often expect from good music students in varying levels, that further adds to the load/cuts into time.</p>
<p>What a lot of parents with kids seriously into arts do is homeschool them, it is quite common, a lot more then I ever would have expected. Not having to spend 6 or 7 hours a day at the school,not have to do the school programs and homework is a big load off of them, and also gives them flexibility. For our son, the load of school, plus seriously pursuing his music by the end of the school year left him almost dead, and that is when we made the decision to follow that track, and so far it is working out well, despite the fact that his music is now kicked up even more:).</p>
<p>There are kids who seem to ‘do it all’, who take the X AP’s, 4.0 GPA, etc, and do sports and do music and seem to be flying, and I give them all the credit in the world, but they are outliers, not the rule IME, most people run into that wall.</p>
<p>As far as schools valuing arts and such, forget it, most in my experience don’t. They are the first things cut, they are often considered ‘frills’, and worse, when kids get serious many schools can’t understand the dedication these kids put in, including my son’s old school, they treat that as a ‘hobby’, can’t understand it is ‘serious’ (meanwhile, same said schools will point out with pride serious athletes, who spend all their time training, ice time, travel teams, lessons, coaching, etc). Sadly, I suspect that isn’t going to get any better soon, especially when schools are facing real cuts and such (meanwhile, though, as with one local district, sports seem to be the exception,and when sports are cut, you hear parents howl, or a school crying poverty and gutting arts programs spends 300k to upgrade the football stadium…meanwhile cut arts and the crickets got no competition). </p>
<p>I hear the story of one poster, where they talk about music directors discouraging kids from doing outside programs, saturday prep programs and the like (not all, of course,not true in my son’s old school or the school I went to or many others). Mark O’Connor, the composer and violinist, tells a story about going to school in Seattle (he grew up poor, in a bad area) and having the school not only support him, but do things to dissuade him or make fun of him. The school music director made fun of him (by that time Mark was already a well known fiddling champion, had recorded a couple of albums, played some ridiculous number of instruments and was composing) and was constantly putting him down (Mark is a lot kinder person then I am; I would have gone once grown up and found the music director and rubbed his nose in his own mediocrity, or worse). At one point Mark had won a competition to play with Stephanne Grapelli in NYC at Carnegie Hall (he was like 15), and the school basically threatened to expel him if he took time off to go and play at the concert…tells you what many schools are like.</p>
<p>In any event, I agree with other posters about the original message, that the AP frenzy and the load she is taking may not be conducive to exploring her music/musicality. More importantly, I think the AP thing is more about the school hyping them as a means to show “how good they are” (since the geniuses that design school ratings use students in AP classes as proof of being ‘high level’) and I think that if she is looking towards music it may work out to adjust the academic side to see what she can do musically, and I suspect it won’t kill her in the end. A lot of what is out there as ‘conventional wisdom’ is self promoting hype about academics and ‘getting into good schools’, as one poster proved by calling the colleges, what the school told their daughter about dropping an AP was crap…</p>
<p>I wish you luck, I hope for a much more sane and balanced future for your daughter.</p>
<p>Update - My daughter seems to have calmed down about the AP Euro exam. Found out yesterday though that her honors chem teacher is scheduling an exam the same morning as the AP Euro exam. Why do teachers do that?! </p>
<p>She gets annoyed with me for talking about her future. I think it’s a lot for a 15 y/o to process and have to make what seem to be life defining decisions at such a young age. I surely didn’t know what I really wanted to do at that age. At this point she would like to minor in music and find another major such as education which would allow her to teach music or another subject. This may require more than a four year degree program but it seems that the more skills you have, the more likely a musician can find a job. If it turns out to be in music - Great! If not, then at least you can still participate in a community orchestra or other musical venture and have a job that pays you money.</p>
<p>Ideally my dd would like to have her own violin studio where she can teach privately. Having another source of income would carry her through until she established herself as a private teacher.</p>
<p>Music education is a whole program unto itself. There are many programs that lead toward licensure to teach music at the K-12 level and an audition and an interview is usually required before admission to these as well. If her goal is to teach privately, a music ed degree is not required but it may certainly be helpful. The people interviewing for those programs generally do not like to hear that they are being considered as a plan B or a way to earn money en route to something else. They are looking for people who are really turned on by the prospect of teaching in the school systems.</p>