<p>The problem with sending a very bright student to a community college is that the course work isn’t the same as they’d be getting at a university. At our local community college, the courses were easier than those at the high school. The instructors are not the same caliber and the other students there are not the same caliber. There are no research assistant opportunities and the intellectual environment is just plain inferior. A young relative of mine who attended our local community college, but who was gifted intellectually, would tell stories of the really dumb questions asked in class: “The Earth revolves around the Sun, right?”. </p>
<p>For a really bright kid to have to attend those sorts of Mickey Mouse classes would be demoralizing and discouraging.</p>
<p>What I find the “let them eat cake” attitude is when people do not undertand/do not care that situations are different, especially COLA issues. That in some area, income limits will reach middle class and some areas they wont. </p>
<p>I never said anything about the attitude of being too good for a school. </p>
<p>I think it is unfair for people who are struggling living in high COLA areas to have to subsidize what are middle class people in low COLA areas.</p>
<p>Depends on what you mean by “struggling.” Someone who makes $90,000 and lives in San Francisco is still better off than someone who makes $45,000 and lives in Omaha. The cost of living isn’t that much higher.</p>
<p>I’m sorry that your local community college isn’t great, but your anecdote about one school does not equal scientific data.</p>
<p>My community college anecdote is diametrically opposed to yours. I got a great lower-division education with amazing experiential learning opportunities at one of the best journalism programs in the country. Best of all, I spent basically nothing on it ($11 per unit) and so was able to afford loans for my junior and senior years at an out-of-state flagship.</p>
<p>I agree. There are many smart kids at CCs and local publics. many just can’t afford to go away to school. And, there’s going to be a different level of student in a Cal II or Gen Chem class than what might be taking some easy science or math class. </p>
<p>And, if more people got over this idea of borrowing crazy amounts for college, then more smart kids would be at their local CCs and local state publics.</p>
<p>Community college is affordable but the quality varies. A recently published book, Crossing the Finish Line, gives rather dismal statistics regarding the odds of achieving a bachelor’s degree for those who start at Community College.</p>
<p>In my state most kids don’t need to start at CC due to finances if they are decent students, the ability to commute to a 4 year school is usually available and tuition + FA programs make college more affordable than it is for many families elsewhere (have relative in IL - wish they were here!).</p>
<p>Even if the quality is not as good at the CC, it is better than overwhelming debt IMO. Rather than the colleges sales pitch, parents and kids could use very solid counseling regarding the purchase of education, coming from a financial perspective. The allure of the dream is so great for so many - particularly those who have struggled financially and see education as their child’s pathway to a better life. It doesn’t matter if there is a chart on the wall showing what their future payment will be if there isn’t solid advice regarding their ability to make that payment.</p>
<p>The financial counseling required for the stafford loan was online at my daughter’s school, it’s good it was there, but really - what 18 year old can truly process the life implications of these choices? Their parents sign on for year one loans with no sure knowledge that they will qualify for the same aid in subsequent years - and no one should be surprised by this because they have been sitting at those college information sessions that make it all seem possible. Many colleges try to give packages with responsible levels of students debt - but they require Plus loans from the parents that are unsustainable; why wouldn’t the parents believe that it will somehow all work out when the recruiter said “if we accept you we will do everything possible to see that you can afford to attend”? As previously posted, college recruiters are often young and only beginning to repay their own loans, if they had the same level of experience and the financial perspective of the FA officers they might word their presentations differently - but then they’d loose their jobs because the college would no longer be raking in thousands and thousands of surplus applications at $75 a pop.</p>
<p>The myths surrounding college finance aren’t poisoning the poor and first generation alone, I’ve had college educated parents tell me they don’t expect to pay anything beyond “a little bit to begin with” for their kid at a private college because the college “won’t want to lose such a good student once they’re there”. One mother was convinced I didn’t know how to do my job because I refused to validate her belief that college will be virtually free for her gifted kid. Arrogant delusions are annoying, but naive misplaced trust is heartbreaking.</p>
<p>Wow. This is a hot button topic for sure. I admit, because I have always lived in cities with substantial population only on West Coast and East Coast, it never crossed my mind that some students might not even have the OPTION of living at home and attending a local community college because the commute to the college might be hours. But, if I lived many places in the Midwest this could possibly happen with my kids.</p>
<p>IMO, it is easier for kids to get aid after they are independent. Unfortunately, even truly independent kids aren’t considered ‘independent’ for school. Our almost 22 year old left the minute she graduated high school and lived on her own from June 2007 until July 2010. When she wanted to begin college in fall 2010 it turned out, at 21 years old, she was to be considered a dependent regardless. I found that ridiculous but, told her if that was the way the game was played, she may as well move back in and save some money. LOL. So she did and is attending community college less than 10 minutes away.</p>
<p>My parents were willing to pay for my college when I was a kid. I went one year and dropped out. It just wasn’t working for me. A couple years later when I wanted to go back I moved to the West Coast just to live, work, save and gain residency. I managed to get my degree from SDSU with less than $5K in loans and count myself as very lucky to have had such a small amount. The only reason I really needed loans on top of my grants was to pay for the childcare while I was in school since I already had kids. I graduated in 1994 and clearly costs are much higher now and the rules have changed.</p>
<p>I work in a field with a lot of super smart people that went to great name recognition colleges but because I am also very smart, I am in the SAME place as they are even though they probably all had large loans to attend Cornell, NYU, Brown, etc. </p>
<p>So, my point is, name recognition is great if you can afford it but a degree and a shining GPA will still get you where you want to go. There is always something to be said for hard work and determination!! The best education in the world won’t help you keep a job if you aren’t capable of doing your best in the real world.</p>
<p>Polarscribe, I do not claim to know Omaha v SF, but I can compare the high cola area I live v Mom in low cola area, and I would rather have 45 in her area than 90 in mine.</p>
<p>Mom2 – I do not understand your question? I said - </p>
<p>I do not claim to know Omaha v SF, but I can compare the high cola area I live v Mom in low cola area, and I would rather have 45 in her area than 90 in mine.</p>
<p>Still boils down to saddling kids and yes I mean kids with debt that they cannot understand and does not go away. Those same lenders would never loan that kid $80,000 for a BMW, but with the Federal guarentee will let the kid sign up for that and more. If the lenders had some skin in the game they would not be so predatory.</p>
<p>If you compare east islip, ny to austin,tx on a cost of living calculator…comparable salaries
75,0000 east islip equals 55,000 austin. Both are middle class…assume same assests who will get the most financial aid. At elite full need schools no loans for the 55,000 salary.</p>
<p>My d got a financial aid letter from a college she was accepted to. According to FAFSA, we have a 22K EFC. She got a letter stating she was awarded a 10k merit award, then unsubsidized and subsidized loans up to 5500K, and then over 15k in something called alternative loan. Then they included an information sheet on both the Stafford loan and the credit based alternative loan.Now I read through these fliers and nothing was said about how these loans cannot be taken away by bankruptcy. THe Plus loan that is talked about is through the Dept. of Education. I can see how someone with less understanding of the system may see the award letter, think it is the thing to do, see the procedure and information form, see it is from the Federal Government, and decide that the government wouldn’t be encouraging risky and stupid loans so it must be okay. </p>
<p>NOw my problem with this isn’t even that the loans are available but how this college presented it, without any talk of us paying anything out of pocket for our child’s education while we had an EFC of 22K. This is insanity. Our d isn’t going to this university but if she was, she wouldn;t be applying for alternatiuve loans.</p>
<p><strong>Now I read through these fliers and nothing was said about how these loans cannot be taken away by bankruptcy.</strong></p>
<p>Frankly, I would not expect to see anything about the non-dischargeability in the loan fliers. One would hope that the ability to get off the hook for one’s student loans by declaring bankruptcy would not be one of the primary considerations of a prospective borrower.</p>
<p>change the pitch. the pitch. the pitch. what’s the pitch. oh it’s those brochures that tell juniors and seniors in high schools to “explore those full range of options”…you know those glossy brochures that scream at mere childish teens “that private colleges in many instancs can offer a better package that your instate local college”. </p>
<p>here’a a pitch from the standard one</p>
<p>“Because many colleges and universities (define many) offer very (define very) substanital financial aid, you (define substanital, define you, the student or the parent who will co-sign?) should not be deterred (interesting bold word, no?) from applying to colleges and universities with high posted tuition and fees (how about wasted deposits, anxiety, disappointment and wasted emotions on dreams made of loans?) To know exactly (follow my cheese) how much any college will cost (really? for our poor family (single custodial parent, 2 kids, efc 6K, just making it, the in state option is 9K for example, the private out of state is 50K, let me think…) you and your family must apply”…end quote and embellishments</p>
<p>the problem is the PR people cement the idea of merit, scholarship, financial aid, the holy EFC. they want you to invest in their dream. then they deliver some pretty standard fair about 100K to 140K over 4 year (just think down from 160K to 200K what a bargain!). i don’t like disneyworld and I also don’t like this process. I can clearly see that it is easier to keep up my daughter’s car and help her to maybe have a co-op residentially with friends and pay local and thwart unrealistic dreams that can lead to economic disaster. not all families are created equal, not a bad lesson for me to reinforce to her. doesn’t diminish her talent, her 5.7, her 750 sat’s or her portfolio at all in my eyes. right now I am using these “packages” for my wall of financial ruin. we are going to make art work out of them sooner or later. or we are going to frame them and look at them in 10 years and consider how we have not defaulted or what we are paying instead of them. Framing may be in order! </p>
<p>WGS, I think you hit the nail on the head. Colleges have professional marketing, and they are familiar with the process. Its not an equal match for many parents.</p>
<p>wgs - great post! High school kids are so focused on trying to figure out whether they will be accepted at dream school X, no one ever stops to calculate how much money School X is raking in by encouraging thousands of kids to apply when only a fraction of them will ever be offered admission. If they fully realized the business side of things from the school’s perspective, many of them would run their half of the process a whole lot differently.</p>