how do I do it?

Parent Cafe
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<p>Gone for a while, hope I can help here..</p>

<p>A friend was in your situation last year. Her daughter is French-American (mom American, dad French) and the girl had always studied in French schools (first in Paris, then abroad). Though her English is "conversationally fluent", she has never been educated in English. She was always a top student in terms of class performance. She only applied to Ivy or similar caliber schools- since her family rationalized that to them it was not worth paying all the money a US university would cost if the school was not of a certain caliber. This was a late decision for the family, the girl had always expected to go to a French university, she only decided otherwise at the end of 11th grade. So, she had to quickly study for SAT's..and all the rest. Her best SAT scores were fair- 650/560 M/V and her SAT II's were 590 (writing) and 620/630(math and ?biology). She scored well on the TOEFL. </p>

<p>Some of the challenges: the teachers had never seen the sorts of recommendation forms US schools use...they had to be translated...and the teachers are not inclined to use the sort of "superlative" language a US teacher might use. </p>

<p>Also, the forms etc had to be translated (transcript). This was especially challenging as the family was not living in France (translators less readily available).</p>

<p>The tests were a challenge not only due to language, but also due to academic content (SAT II). The European systems have a different scope and sequence of instruction than does an American program. The same thing happens with kids in IB programs. </p>

<p>The girl reads novels and such in English, but really didn't have much writing experience in English, which was a challenge in essay writing.</p>

<p>Actually, it was an advantage to be applying to the caliber of school she was looking at, since the more selective schools are in fact familiar with other sorts of educational systems and the significance of grades, and assessments done in these systems. I am not sure that schools such as Rider or Richard Stockton (my neice who lives in NJ is applying to both of these) would have this familiarity. It helps to look at the %international students at a school...those with a higher % are more familiar, of course.</p>

<p>Happy news, the girl was admitted to one of the 10 schools she was admitted to(!) and is now attending one of the Ivy schools. She spent the summer brushing up on her vocabulary in science (she is premed) and reading plenty! </p>

<p>Most universities have an "international admissions" person and this is definitely the person to correspond with. Expatriate students are usually "managed" by these individuals, even though they are American citizens. </p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

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<p>Nobodyspecial.
I actually am very familiar with the French system because I am a francophile. :)
My children also are rare Americans who have taken the International Baccalaureate program here in the US. It is the equivalent of the bac.
Test scores still count a great deal. Some kids in my sons' school get test scores similar to your son's or even lower test scores, and end up going to schools where the students' test scores are on par with theirs. This includes some students in my sons' school that have excellent grades, but for whatever reason, do not test that well.</p>

<p>Some students have excellent grades, excellent test scores and end up at top 25 schools. Some of these end up at schools ranked around 20-25 after being rejected by places like HPYS. Even with the excellent curriculum, excellent grades and scores, they aren't shoo-ins for HPYS.</p>

<p>There are many international and American students who take the bac and who have high grades, high test scores (including nonnative English speakers who manage to get 700s and higher on the v SAT I) and also have extraordinary ECs such as students who are national champions in athletics or math.Check out some of the posts by foreign students who ask lots of questions on the boards here that deal with HPYS.</p>

<p>My guess is that if your son's test scores were much higher, his being an American who lived abroad might give him a strong tip at top 25 LACs or other colleges that are trying hard to diversify. Those with the best endowments also might be able to give him the aid that your family needs. He then would be in the kind of position as was the Ivy student girl mentioned by the previous poster. </p>

<p>It may be possible that his relatively low SAT scores are due to lack of experience with the test. If so, if he studies for the test, he may be able to raise his test scores into the 1200 or so range, which probably is what he would need to be considered at Ivies and at top LACs. He also may score higher on the ACT than on the SAT.</p>

<p>If he can't raise his SAT scores (or get a competitive ACT score), particularly his verbal, however, I would have concerns about his going to tier 1 or even many tier 2 colleges because my belief is that it would be difficult for him to meet the writing and reading requirements at such colleges. I used to teach college (a tier 3), and saw a big difference in the written work of students with SAT scores similar to your son and students with higher SAT scores. Since I was at a tier 3, students with average and below average SAT scores still could pass and get their diplomas, but that might not be the case at more rigorous universities.</p>

<p>With the exception of engineering universities and departments, colleges weigh the verbal part of the SAT I more than they do the math part. Writing and reading is so important to college success that the SAT V is something that adcoms take into strong consideration.</p>

<p>Because of his test scores, though, his matches right are lower ranked schools, most of which do not have large endowments and lots of scholarship money. They also may not be able to go to the financial lengths to get diversity that the wealthier, higher ranked schools are able to do.</p>

<p>Has he considered going to a Canadian university? Since his French skills seem stronger than his English ones, those might be good options. Their costs also may be in line with what you can pay. They also may be less overcrowded than are French schools. He may be able to get into a better quality Canadian university than he could in the US. </p>

<p>I know that you're in an unusual situation, and I wish you and your son the best of luck.</p>

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<p>I got my bac decades ago and came to the US to study. For some reason, I did not have to take SAT or other tests. I did have a stellar high school record, though, of course, this being a lycee, my grades did not translate into anything approaching As. </p>

<p>My niece spent one year with us a while back, having decided to experience an American high school. She was 17 at the time. A very bright girl, she excelled in her lycee in one of Paris' best suburbs. But her English was pretty bad (and her German was worse). In our high school, she got As in her classes even though her English was atrocious. Apparently, the teachers did not take the grades they were giving her seriously. Her totally unidiomatic English went uncorrected. She did enjoy the American-style classes where discussion is encouraged, very different from the French system. I remember having a terrible time my freshman year in college, but I also think that my English was better than hers. Still, I think her knowledge base was at least equal if not superior to that of the best college freshmen I have encountered. </p>

<p>Another niece spent the summer with us. She brought along her math book (she was reviewing what she'd learned during the school year) as she was preparing for going into 1ere and for the first part of the bac. Although she was in the social sciences stream, it struck me that the math she was expected to cover was far more advanced than what a non math/science student in an American high school would be studying at the same stage. The fact that French students do not study algebra and geometry sequentially but together is actually a plus when it comes to taking the SAT. But the format of the SAT and any multiple choice test takes some getting used to. </p>

<p>If your child is a good student, it might be worth contacting one of the selective colleges that are used to international students and asking how they interpret French school records and whether students applying from France are expected to take the SAT. They may not be.</p>

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<p>Maybe everyoneelse understands this, but I don't.</p>

<p>If the French HS studenst are so far advanced above our American HS and College students, why would French families want to get their kids into US Colleges? What am I missing?</p>

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<p>Momsdream:</p>

<p>The French university system is very different from the American college system and is by no means superior owing to lack of funding and over-specialization.</p>

<p>Actually elementary and high school education in many countries is superior to American elementary and high school education. Taiwanese diplomats who'd gotten Ph.D.s from American universities have been known to send their children back to Taiwan because of their concerns over the weak education their children were getting here.</p>

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<p>In the case of the girl I know, she wanted to go to the US to be premed because she did not want to begin a premed-restricted curriculum as a freshman, as she would have had to do in France. She wanted a liberal arts education.</p>

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<p>Ok, so the US University system is better...but the US elementary and HS system isn't up to par. (?) Is this true for US elementary and HS privates, as well? Or, does this only apply to publics?</p>

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<p>There are several issues involved here.
Curriculum. I cannot speak to all systems, but in France, a student is expected to be exposed to "some" calculus (and therefore pre-caluclus) during high school, whether the student is in the literature/languages, social sciences/economics or math/science track. That is not true of the US where students can graduate from high school with only algebra and geometry. Students are expected to learn 2 foreign languages (though not necessarily very well--I should know-- the first one beginning in 6th grade); they are exposed to all three branches of science--biology, physics, chemistry-- through high school, rather than two at most, like the majority of US high schoolers (how much of each they learn depends on which track they're in). Thus, the current debates as to whether physics should be taught first or last are of no concern.
When I came to the US for college, it was because I wanted to see the world. I went in as a freshman and never regretted it; but I heard of French students getting Advanced Standing at other colleges on the strength of their lycee education.
Students from Asia come to US colleges with very strong backgrounds in math and sciences. Some posters on CC are from Asia. I have been told that entrance to some Asian universities is even more rigorous than entrance to HYPMS.</p>

<p>That said, the French baccalaureate is designed to fail 1/3 to 1/2 the students. Students who fail one component of the exam have to repeat the whole year and all subjects; it is common for students to be retained as a result of failing an exam along the way. The French university system is woefully underfunded. It is also very specialized, so that students do not get a liberal arts education on top of their major, and cannot easily change majors. For the more prestigious schools, there is an entrance exam.
The German system similarly tracks students into the prestigious an rigorous Abitur that leads to university or the apprenticeship system that does not. In the British system, only a minority of students go on to A levels. These are the students who will be going on to university. Admission to spots at university is very strict, partly to control the number of graduates going on the job market in a particular fiedl eventually (remember the student who wanted to study medicine at Oxford but was denied but got admitted at Harvard?).
In Japan, where high school students are known to be under incredible pressure to study virtually non-stop, admission to the prestigious Tokyo University is almost a guarantee of a great job later on, but university students are said not to work half as hard as high school students.
In most of the world, opportunities for cutting edge research at university level are not as widely available as in the US. That is a great attraction for foreign students.</p>

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<p>I don't think it's a question of 'better' so much as of 'different.' I can't speak to the French bac but certainly here in the UK, the HS curriculum offers much greater depth than the US in individual subjects. It is the breadth that is lacking. Students who want to explore various subjects before choosing a concentration will want to go the US for the liberal arts curriculum. And, in addition, for many Americans/dual nationals brought up abroad, 'going back' to the US for college can be a very emotional rite of passage.</p>

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<p>Thanks again for your amazing messages and I congratulate you on having your kids do the IB. However, and I can't be certain but I have been told that the IB is a much lower level than the FrenchBac (this was told to me by other Americans who had a choice between the two), many French universities and grand ecoles won't accept the IB.</p>

<p>Also the teachers are just so darn nasty here, that's what makes going to school here hard. To get good grades and stay motivated despite the insults the teachers throw at you.</p>

<p>That said, my son doesn't even have his yet so I'm keeping my mouth shut about what is good or bad@! </p>

<p>He will just have to get his bottom in gear and get those scores up. Thanks again, Kris</p>

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<p>Thank you thank you! I feel understood! Much better now!</p>

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<p>Thanks! I feel much better because you have finally described our situation! I feel as if someone just pulled a thorn out of my foot!</p>

<p>Yes, I am afraid that at Rider and Stockton they won't understand.. I've thought of it, but hope to contact the French profs there (the one at Rider is actually French).</p>

<p>The goal of course would be one of the top 50 schools.. Clark or Franklin Marshall would be great for him.</p>

<p>Cheers! Any more advice would be welcome if you think of it.</p>

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<p>I agree completely about not wanting him to be overwhelmed academically and really wouldn't even want him to go to top tier schools. You are absolutely right, it wouldn't suit him. The goal is to try and get an aid package at Clark or Franklin and Marshall.
I would love to hear more about your family, I guess there isn't any advice I can offer you.....</p>

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<p>Nobodyspecial:</p>

<p>You could try to contact faculty in French departments at the colleges you are considering and ask whether they would be able to interpret a French trasncript for American adcoms officers. I remember how bemused my S's were when their cousin boasted about getting a 16/20 on the biology portion of her bac. Of course, 16 on a 100 point scale gets you only 80--which would be a Bminus here. But IT IS an excellent score!</p>

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<p>Even less selective schools can have plenty of financial aid available. You don't want a need blind school so much as a school that promises to meet demonstrated financial need of a high percentage of accepted students.</p>

<p>For instance, At Rider, 75% of students applied for financial aid, 65% of those were determined to have need, but ONLY 12% of those who had need had 100% of their need met. The average financial aid package awarded totalled $17,189, of which $8504 were in grants and the rest in loans and work study. 59% of students borrowed to attend and graduated with an average of $23,000 in debt. In terms of merit awards, 13% received merit awards and the average award was $8923. You can probably get details about what is needed to qualify for a merit award consideration at Rider's financial aid web site.</p>

<p>Also, you might want to take a look at <a href="http://www.fairtest.org%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.fairtest.org&lt;/a> for schools that don't consider SATs in the admissions process. There are quite a few great schools on that list.</p>

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<p>yipes, I hadn't seen it that way before....thanks for the info on Rider.</p>

<p>I was fearful that even if you are a medium candidate and you need aid, they won't let you in.</p>

<p>Therefore, does that mean that Rider actually says yes to students it knows needs aid and then lets them work it out?</p>

<p>Could these types of statistics also mean that other colleges say no to kids who need more money, and then can boast that they give 80 percent of demonstrated need? Just curious...</p>

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<p>Since I have the book out, I thought I'd look up the other schools you mentioned for you. If you compare the numbers, you can see how different your chances of aid at each school are. First, since your son seems to be interested in schools in NJ, he may want to look at Drew University.</p>

<p>Drew is better academically than Rider and tends to be much more generous with their financial aid packages and merit awards. It would be a match for him probably. 65% applied for financial aid, 50% were determined to have need, 33% had their need fully met. OIf those average financial aid package was $20,010, including $14,910 in grants and $5692 in loans. Average amount of debt on graduation was $16,120. Merit awards were given to 27% of the class, average merit award was $11,373</p>

<p>Robert Stockton (NJ) - First, go to their financial aid site and see whether he will even qualify for grant aid if he will be considered an out of state student. Many public schools only give loans and work study to in-state students. In any case, 75% of students applied for aid, of those 54% were determined to have need, and of those 68% had their need fully met. The average financial aid package was $90542, of that the average grant was $5180 and only 31% received a grant. The avearage loan and work study was $3650. 8% received merit awards averaging $2,215. 62% of students borrowed to attend.</p>

<p>Clark - 73% of undergrads applied for financial aid and of those, 57% were determined to have need. Of those, 70% had their need fully met by an aid package. The average financial aid package: $20515 of which grants were $10,920. 13% received merit money, average award $11000. 86% borrowed to pay for their education, average debt on graduation was $17,875</p>

<p>Franklin & Marshall - 52% applied for financial aid, 42% were determined to have need, of those 98% had their need fully met. Average financial aid package was $19,474, of which grants were %15,655. Average debt on graduation was $19,656. Merit awards were given to 19% of students - average award was $11,898.</p>

<p>As you can see, there's a huge difference between Rider and F&M - at Rider, your chances of getting full need covered are pretty slim (only 12% do) while at F&M they are very good (98% do).</p>

<p>There is NO PROBLEM with writing a polite email to the financial aid office of each school and asking them to provide this information. Few financial aid offices will guarantee anything until acceptance. However, this may help you sort out some options. If you need financial aid, your best bet is to go where a higher majority of students receive aid. Good luck.</p>

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<p>nobody special - yes, most colleges will admit students who they know need aid and won't promise to meet full aid. They may reject borderline candidates that need aid however. The problem is that not every school guarantees to meet full need, as you can see. Look for schools that have a high percentage of need being met - usually those are the schools where someone with need and a close fit with the school's median stats will not have need affect their chances. ANd, just as importantly, always ask about how much of need is satisfied by loans and work study. Two schools can offer the same package but one can offer much more in loans than the other. Also, with work study - that money is not given "up front" - you have to earn it as you go. Some schools offer large work study grants that are not really realistic based on average pay of student jobs.</p>

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<p>Hi Special(Still waiting on the name change!!),</p>

<p>One, why don't you appeal to the mods to re-title this thread: "Advice for French Bac?" there are a few French mums on other threads.....they might have specific experience.</p>

<p>Secondly, while it's true adcoms may appreciate the 'extraordinary' quality of your S's french bac, it is also true adcoms see many many extraordinary applications. Without taking offense, you ought to take the above CC advice on board and choose at least one other safety school for your S.</p>

<p>Third, order the "10 Real SATs" from Amazon.com--plus any other prep books for SAT IIs. Are you in the US or will you be in the US for any extended period? If so, find a SAT prep tutor to review at least the Math with your S. If not, perhaps you can find an English speaking tutor in your country. (Are you in France?)</p>

<p>For raising the Verbal SAT, my advice is to have your S make flashcards of the SAT words he DOESN'T know--and memorize them in front of the exam. The SAT word lists are in the back of the prep books--usually available in foreign libraries or available through Amazon.com. My older S took three weeks to do this task, my younger S did it in 48 hours for the PSAT--partly because he used his older brother's SAT flashcards! :)</p>

<p>Finally, the schools you mention are relatively small. They are located in small towns. Is your S an Americo-phile? Will he be comfortable in a small, highly American environment? Do you want to think about a bigger school in a bigger city? Besides Clark, the others are homogenous populations. Does he prefer more diveristy? Those are things to think about for ex-pats and international students.</p>

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<p>Special:</p>

<p>On the SAT-Verbal, your S should do well as long he familiarizes himself with the SAT format, especially the Multiple Choice section and the tricks. The reason is that so many of the words are latinate in origin. When I came to the US, I had no trouble being polysyllabic; it was idiomatic English that kept tripping me up. My roommate laughed at me when I said I'd lost my equilibrium; I meant I'd lost my balance (which of course means something else in French).</p>

<p>If your S is doing reasonably well in school, he could consider Boston University. It has a very large international student population. Boston College, too, might appeal. There are direct flights from Boston to Paris on Air France.</p>