<p>I'm just a senior in highschool at the moment who has a GPA issue. I don't really care about what my undergraduate university ends up being as long as it will get me into some of the best graduate programs around. So, I need some info on how well a less reputable university would fare as far as getting me into one of those graduate programs.</p>
<p>I went to a second-tier college (it’s currently ranked between #60 and #70 on the U.S. News list if I remember correctly) and I’m currently in a Ph.D program at Columbia.</p>
<p>My disclaimer is that you shouldn’t worry overly about graduate admissions at this point, because you’re not even really sure whether you want to go to graduate school and what it is you want to go to graduate school for. I’m considered having decided “early” and I didn’t even decide until my sophomore year of college.</p>
<p>With that said, it’s good to think about post-college options early on, so here’s the deal. Grad and professional programs, overall, don’t really care where you got your undergrad degree. Does it look better if you went to Harvard v. Podunk State? Sure. But that’s only because the quality of Harvard’s undergraduate education is a known quantity whereas Podunk State’s is not necessarily. However, that varies by committee. Graduate school professors have connections with their colleagues all over the country, and some of those colleagues may be teaching at Podunk State. Basically, don’t worry about where you go to undergrad.</p>
<p>Here’s what you DO need to worry about:</p>
<p>-Get good grades. I mean, as good as you possibly can. Aim for at least a 3.5. I had a 3.4 and I got into Columbia, though, so if you fall a little bit short don’t despair. However, AIM FOR A 3.5 especially if you are planning on going to a Ph.D program. The higher the better.</p>
<p>-Get good grades in your major and cognate classes. I think what made up for my 3.4 overall GPA is that I had a 3.6 in my major. No one cares that I got a C in acting when I got mostly As in my psychology courses.</p>
<p>-Start fostering relationships with professors early. If you find yourself in a 100+ person lecture class, visit the professor at his or her office hours to ask questions and introduce yourself. You will need to foster solid relationships with at least 4 professors, so start early. Taking smaller, advanced-level seminars is also really important for this; smaller seminars get you closer to the professors you need to know. I’d advise taking at least 3 small upper-level seminars in your area before your senior year.</p>
<p>-Get involved in whatever the related activity is for your graduate program. When you say graduate programs I am assuming that you are talking about traditional, research-focused MA/MS/Ph.D programs. Then the correlate would be research. Start doing research; the earlier the better. Start looking at the departmental website (and related departments - e.g. if you are a chemistry major interested in biochemistry look at the biology department too) and find out what kind of research the professors in your department are doing; find out which ones really appeal to you. Then talk to those professors and find out if they need any free labor. Your first research experience will likely be lower-level stuff and likely be unpaid; over time you may work yourself into a higher position.</p>
<p>Even if you are applying to professional schools, research is still impressive. A law school will be impressed by the outstanding applicant who conducted relevant research in any field really. Doing research means that you know how to think logically, have solid reasoning skills, know how to work closely with professors and know how to write well. In medical school apps doing applicable research can make your application stand out.</p>
<p>-Extracurricular activities don’t really matter in grad school apps. Join the honor society for your field (e.g. Psi Chi for psychology) and Phi Beta Kappa if you are selected. Some activities can be advantageous in applications to professional schools, like Model UN for a law school applicant or volunteering at a hospital for a medical school applicant. Use discretion. Other than that, do whatever you want but NOT too much that it’s going to make your grades tank. Grades are paramount, they are the most important thing. 2-3 ongoing activities/clubs per year is more than enough. Those little bitty honor societies like Golden Key and National Society of Collegiate Scholars aren’t really worth the money.</p>
<p>-Start studying for the entrance exams to these places early. Do what’s going to help you. If you need to take a basic math class, do that. If your vocabulary is not very good, start reading now. The GRE is basically like the SAT’s grandpa and is what you need to get into most traditional graduate programs. There are different tests with different competencies for other programs (like the MCAT for medical school is a lot of science stuff; you need to take the prerequisite classes before you take the MCAT. The LSAT is logic puzzles. The GMAT is for business school. DAT for dental school. And so on.) You don’t have to start studying freshman year, but for the GRE specifically beginning in the late spring of your junior year and taking it early in your senior year gives you enough time to retake if you don’t like your scores. I encounter so many people now who got scores they don’t like in late November, when it’s too late to retake in time for December 15 deadlines.</p>
<p>-Look for summer opportunities early as well. Summer internships are very important. For traditional research-based graduate programs look for summer research programs - they can be called SROPs, REUs, SURFs, whatever. Just search “summer research for undergrads” or something similar and a million will pop up. If you are in a science field you can also visit the NSF website and look for their listing of NSF-funded REUs. These programs usually pay for your room and board, give you a stipend of around $3,000, and pair you up with a faculty mentor with which you can conduct research over the duration of the summer. They are great experiences.</p>
<p>If you are more interested in professional schools look for the relevant experiences. If you want an MPP or a JD for example, look at the federal state department’s summer internships (and look early because they fill up fast - very popular). Look to see if your own state has internships with the government. If you are interested in medical school look up one of those summer pre-medical programs that allows you to shadow a doctor and maybe do research or basic practical skills.</p>
<p>-Develop good writing skills, you will need them for the statement of purpose.</p>
<p>Thank you for such an in-depth post.</p>
<p>How do you think they’d treat an even less reputable school like NAU? The reason is NAU is cheap, in-state and the environment is perfect for me.</p>
<p>I’m assuming by NAU you mean Northern Arizona University. That’s the Google result that came up the most, and it’s a public school.</p>
<p>Again, I don’t think it matters much. It’s not about how they will treat the school, it’s about how they will treat you, the applicant. If you are a mediocre applicant from a mediocre school - 3.2 GPA, no research experience, average essays, test scores, and letters - they will not accept you (or at least the top programs won’t).</p>
<p>If you are an outstanding applicant with great preparation to enter the school - a high GPA in your field, 2+ years of research experience, excellent statement of purpose, solid test scores, and outstanding letters of recommendation - and you seem like an excellent fit for the program, then they will probably admit you. Then, if you come to the program and you do well, the reputation of Northern Arizona for your particular program is heightened, and they are more likely to look carefully at the next application that comes from Northern Arizona.</p>
<p>This is how it seems to work - a very good undergraduate school with a strong department in your intended graduate program may be a tick in your favor, so if you go to Harvard or Swarthmore that’s a good thing. But the reverse isn’t necessarily true - going to a more unknown school isn’t necessarily a strike against you, it’s just that the people reading your application have less to go on because they’re not familiar with the strength of your undergraduate program. An A in the philosophy department at Swarthmore is pretty solid, most committees know what that means. What does an A in the philosophy department at Northern Arizona mean? Do you really know your stuff or are As easy to come by? Who’s even teaching in the philosophy dept at NAU? Do they know their stuff? It’s only through experience with those students that they glean that information, and they’re far more likely to have experience with kids from Swarthmore than kids from your uni. But if you stand out as an obviously outstanding candidate with the kind of experience they want and evidence of an understanding of what the graduate program desires and requires of you, those wonderings are mitigated.</p>
<p>If you’re going into the sciences, research is what matters most; so make sure you go to a school that has adequate research opportunities (and professors that do work that interests you). NAU may not have that, so make sure you think everything through well. Also, it’s not too difficult to get a 3.8-4.0 and some research experience and transfer to a Top 20 or so if you put forth some effort.</p>
<p>I’m going into astronomy/astrophysics. NAU is right next to Lowell Observatory. Likewise, I’m sure the people in the admissions department for the astronomy program have heard of NAU and I am going to call and ask how that will affect the decision. Even so, I am leaning more towards the University of Arizona, a more recognized school, which is also an institution that they would have heard of because of its proximity to Kitt Peak Observatory and their work on the Phoenix lander.</p>
<p>I may shoot for a better school than either of those. However, University of Arizona would probably stand out on the application much better, though I’d like attending NAU better.</p>
<p>But, I have already decided that I do want to go to graduate school for astronomy/astrophysics. My stubborn nature will keep me on track.</p>
<p>Anyhow, thank you very much for the help.</p>
<p>juillet, I am a college sophomore too and your advice are wonderful and very helpful. Thanks a lot.</p>
<p>Juillet’s advice on how to prepare for graduate school should be required reading for all students wishing to someday pursue an advanced degree. </p>
<p>To the OP: your “GPA issue” in high school won’t matter unless it carries over to your undergraduate studies. If you want to go to Columbia (or any other top school in your field) from NAU, you must get consistently top grades. If you go to an “average” university, then you must prove yourself as being not only above average but superior. This means that when you arrive on campus, you must start anew, with new study habits and attitudes. Figure out now why you didn’t do well in high school. Is it because you don’t care? Or because you don’t study sufficiently? Or because . . . ? Dig deep, and discover the causes so you can address them BEFORE you arrive on campus. Also remember that a college GPA is more of a marathon than a sprint. If you are running long distance, you can stumble once or twice and still recover. Never give up, and instead figure out how to do better.</p>
<p>I can tell you the main reasons why undergraduates, particularly freshman, struggle. If you know the pitfalls ahead of time, you may be able to avoid them.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Inadequate high school preparation: you can’t do anything about this, but the sooner you recognize it, the better. The students who didn’t have to work much in high school, even those who got straight As, often tank when they hit college. Those who were allowed to hand in assignments late without penalties find themselves getting zeros in college when they try the same tactic. You’ll find that people will arrive on campus with different levels of skills not because of intelligence but because they’ve already been taught how to think, how to research, how to write well. If you find yourself in the poor preparation camp, you’ll have to work harder your first year to catch up. </p></li>
<li><p>Poor time management skills: in college, you spend less time in class than you did in high school, but the trade-off is more work outside of class. You must learn how to plan ahead to get your work finished in time. For example, if you have a 300 page novel to read in two weeks, start it at once instead of trying to read it two days beforehand. Keep on top of your work. Read your syllabi (course outlines) to see when your tests/papers are scheduled and when your assignments are due. Work ahead, if possible, and note crunch times in advance. College coursework moves at a much faster pace, and if you fall behind, it’s difficult to catch up.</p></li>
<li><p>Trouble balancing independence and discipline: students free from their parents for the first time and finding themselves in the midst of party central often neglect their studies in favor of social life. Most grow out of this by the end of freshman or sophomore years, but, if you want to get into a school like Columbia, you cannot afford to wait this long. Yes, go to parties and enjoy your new social life, but don’t overdo it. Learn to identify when you must give up a night out. </p></li>
<li><p>Failure to take advantage of student resources, including faculty office hours: your university and professors want you to succeed, but you have to take the initiative to get help. Every professor has set office hours when he/she will be available for students, and most will agree to set up an appointment with you if you can’t make during those times. If you are struggling, go in and talk with the professor. As juillet points out, this is also an excellent way to get to know your professors. Also, most universities have writing centers and math tutors. Don’t be embarrassed to get help if you need it. The dividends later will be well worth the time spent.</p></li>
<li><p>Giving up after the first setback: getting a low grade doesn’t mean that you can’t pull up your grade by the end of the semester. Learn how to analyze your mistakes so you can do better next time. Does your prof expect deeper thinking? Did you spend too much time on one portion of the exam? Did you only memorize facts instead of trying to understand connections and concepts? Are you not understanding the material sufficiently and therefore need to spend more time on the course? If you try to ignore your bad grades, they will only get worse. Be proactive.</p></li>
<li><p>Lack of critical thinking skills: in college, you can no longer regurgitate what has been discussed in class. You must think independently and deeply; you must learn to make insightful connections. Professors love students who come up with well-founded interpretations that they themselves hadn’t considered. </p></li>
<li><p>Poor writing skills: students who can write well have a decided advantage over their peers. If there is one consistent complaint among professors of all disciplines, it’s that too many students do not know how to write. Faulty punctuation, convoluted sentences, poor organization, and incorrect usage all contribute to a low grade. Put away the thesaurus, and instead improve your vocabulary so you can use the right word. Learn the logical progression of sentence to sentence, paragraph to paragraph. Also know that if your critical thinking skills are weak, your writing will also be subpar. Good writing contains complex ideas.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>I know this is a lot to absorb, but if you remember even some of it when you embark on your college career, you’ll be ahead of many of your peers.</p>
<p>Thanks Momwaitingfornew 
Just drawing from my own experiences with the process and talking to other graduate students.</p>
<p>MWFN’s advice about what are the pitfalls is great advice - it’s really very true. Especially the poor time management. Treat college as seriously as you would a paying job. It is, essentially, paying you - in the sense that the investment will bring huge returns on your future, especially if you can leverage your college experience to get you into graduate school.</p>
<p>The other thing - go to class! I spent the first two years of college trying to calculate the best use of my “3 days off” (most classes allow you to miss 3 classes without being penalized). That resulted in me getting grades dropped when I legitimately had to miss class because of sickness and had no days left over. Learn to distinguish legitimate reasons from casual ones.</p>
<p>And oh yeah, maximize those resources, persevere and learn how to write!</p>
<p>AS for the other point, it won’t be necessary to transfer to a Top 20 school. Go where you feel most comfortable but a place that still has the resources to encourage you to succeed and get into graduate school. In my state there was the flagship and the smaller school as well; I’m betting University of Arizona v. NAU is a choice like University of Georgia v. Valdosta State. Truth is, at most public universities the professors are doing research, and people would be surprised with the level of research support they sometimes get at smaller regional places. As a matter of fact, they will likely be delighted when you ask them about their research, as students at smaller places tend to assume that they only teach!</p>
<p>i’d just like to add, even though the OP is talking about science, for anyone interested in the humanities or social sciences, TAKE FOREIGN LANGUAGES. take at least one (but two would be prime, unless you want to study the classics, in which case you’ll need three to four languages) and stick with it at least to the point where you can stumble your way through an academic article written in that language.</p>
<p>this is really important and no one ever tells you about it until you’re in your last year of undergraduate education.</p>
<p>can someone please help me out. I am currently supposed to go to SUNY Stony Brook University. This university is known for pre-med and what not. if I attend this university I will pay $20,000 for the 4 years. Until recently the recession hit my family and therefore getting those $20,000 is hard and I am now considering CUNY Queens college. Queens is a public city college where I wouldnt pay for anything. Should I invest and take lowns for Stony Brook University or should I go to Queens College. My dream school is Columbia University Medical School. Another school I would hopefully wish to attend is Mount Sinai Medical School. Which the school affect my chances at med school? Please any help is apreciated.
Thanks</p>
<p>Queens College is a great school; CUNY is a well reputed system currently, and going to QC vs Stony Brook shouldn’t hurt your chances in medical school admissions. Med schools mainly care about your grades (especially in your prerequisites), your MCAT scores, and your experience with medical practice or research. $20,000 for Stony Brook is a good deal but Queens College for nothing is an even better deal, especially if you plan on medical school.</p>
<p>I have a friend who went to City College who’s just finished med school at Downstate and he got his Master’s in Public Health here at Columbia (he took two years off after his third year of med school to get his MPH). He’s now doing a residency in emergency medicine at Lincoln Medical.</p>
<p>Such good advice from juilliet and momwaiting, however I’d add a little different advice (and take with a grain a salt as I am likely less qualified to give it.) Do try to go to the best school you can get into, with financial considerations being high priority as well. I really think that my daughter’s application was helped enormously by the reputation of her department, and the reccommendation letters from well known professors who knew her well. She was likely mostly helped (for PhD apps) by the ready access to research opportunities and by going to a school who awards grants for such opportunities in summer. REU’s are competitive, so if your school also funds such research, that’s a bonus. But I agree that in any case you have to be a go-getter and establish relationships and seek opportunitites.</p>
<p>If you are looking at 2 different schools, and you know your major, find out the departmental reputation. You can email admissions (not in the busy season) or the department and find out about admit rates to grad school. Search the websites to see what the professors in the department are working on. The email to the department can ask about research for undergraduates. It may be that the less well known school has the stronger department.</p>
<p>Don’t get your sights set on any particular grad program when you are in high school. When you are nearing application time, that’s when you look for the school and professors you want to work with, who specialize in the work that interests you as a 20 or 21 year old near college grad. Don’t waste time researching this now. Work on your current schoolwork and your undergrad application essays instead. Grad school admissions are extremely competitive, so you will want to focus on your gpa, as well said above. But you will also want to focus, when you are more informed, on schools where you are a good fit with the department or particular professors. And where your yet to be determined specialization is an asset.</p>
<p>I’ve got to agree with Brownparent on this point:</p>
<p>Students from top colleges are favored, overall, in graduate admissions. This is because they are better mentored at the undergraduate level, and because their undergraduate departments are known quantities. </p>
<p>State flagships are often better than “directional state universities” in preparing students for grad admissions, often because they offer access to top researchers and labs, whereas the “directional state universities” are less likely to do so. Do take that into account. And LACs with good reputations can be optimal choices as well, particularly in the social sciences and humanities, but sometimes in the sciences, too. (I can think of a number of elite LACs with top-notch science departments.)</p>
<p>All the posts above are terrific. Read them all carefully.</p>
<p>And best of luck to you.</p>
<p>One clarification on BrownParent’s and Professor X’s excellent comments: while it helps to come from a top university, don’t despair if you can’t get into one out of high school. Graduate programs look at students who have had more of a chance to mature – and they don’t care about extracurricular activities and leadership potential. But the fact remains that the top universities already have most of the top students in their ranks, so when you apply to graduate school, you are competing against not just superior preparation but also against students who are ambitious, highly intelligent, and naturally inclined to tackle tough intellectual problems. At a lesser school, you must be a star, with carefully structured preparation, to be on the same level as the applicants from top universities. It can be done because I’ve seen it done. You don’t have to work harder than a top university undergraduate – the ones who get into top graduate programs work very hard at those schools – but you will probably have to work much harder than your peers at a lesser school. Getting excellent grades is not enough. You have to have time in your schedule for research. You may even have to push your professors instead of the other way around. (This is also true at LACs. My D attended a top LAC, and her biggest mistake was worrying about hurting her advisor’s feelings and therefore not switching to a better lab. You cannot afford to be passive or accommodating when it affects your future.)</p>
<p>Short answer: it can be done, but you face tougher odds.</p>
<p>Duke is one school that publishes mean gpa’s for grad school by department. While it is not Columbia, I have to believe that Columbia is similar if not slightly higher. Of course, if you bring a hook, you can be on the lower end of the scale.</p>
<p>[Duke</a> Graduate School: Statistics](<a href=“http://gradschool.duke.edu/about/stats.php]Duke”>http://gradschool.duke.edu/about/stats.php)</p>
<p>I don’t want to make it seem that my daughter just slid into PhD programs because of her school–she was very ambitious and got involved with research early and often. Pushed herself with her curriculum. I just wanted to point out that there are advantages. However, yes, if you don’t get in top schools, you can achieve your goals. And momwaitingfornew made some very important points about how to do that (as does Juillet above.)</p>
<p>To add to MWFM’s clarification - I certainly would not advise any student to struggle to pay for a top university even if they got into one when they have another good college or university with opportunities for them for far less cost. I never have and never will regret turning down a top 20 university for my #68 college, which I attended on a full scholarship. I still ended up at Columbia, and honestly I don’t think I would’ve gone on to go to a doctoral program if I had gone to the T20 university for undergrad. The environment at my alma mater was so nurturing and helped me grow.</p>
<p>I don’t know if I agree with the statement that top colleges mentor students better at the undergraduate level. The level of mentoring and interaction I got with my professors at my good but not top-ranked LAC is far better than what I’ve observed students getting here. For example, the undergraduate students here in my lab at Columbia don’t even get their letters of recommendation authored by my advisor, who spends most of his time with us graduate students. The lab manager writes them. They don’t even work with my advisor for the most part; they work with the graduate students and post-doctoral fellows. Research is a multi-million dollar endeavor for professors at these schools, and they are going to be far more preoccupied with it than a professor at a lower-tier school or a great LAC where it’s not worth as much to the college. I look at some of the things that the undergraduates do in my lab here at Columbia and while they’re getting experience, some of the juniors and seniors are doing what I was doing when I was a sophomore doing research. And it’s not just because they’re just starting.</p>
<p>I think the level of mentorship that undergraduates get varies from school to school. And I think a student interested in grad school shouldn’t assume that a school will have great research opportunities simply because it’s a top school - or vice versa, that a school will have bad ones because it’s NOT a top school. Ask around and talk to current students and faculty members first.</p>
<p>Hi, I’m currently studying an undergraduate degree in urban planning at the University of Western Australia. I’ve completed one year of study.</p>
<p>I want to go on to study urban planning at the Columbia Graduate School of Design but there are two problems. </p>
<p>For starters I wasn’t sure urban planning was what I wanted to do during my first year of study so my marks were average. The highest I could get my GPA by the end of my degree would be 3.47. </p>
<p>Additionally I would not be able to afford to live and study in New York, I would need some kind of financial assistance.</p>
<p>I read earlier in this thread that research is important, half of my last year is a research project so that might be a positive for me.</p>
<p>Thoughts? still possible for me to get to Columbia or is the GPA going to be a problem? Thanks.</p>
<p>No, the real problem is that Columbia University’s Graduate School of Architecture, Planning and Preservation offers zero financial aid to international students.</p>
<p>[Admissions</a> / Registration | GSAPPonline](<a href=“http://www.arch.columbia.edu/school/section/programs/urban-planning/admissions-registration]Admissions”>http://www.arch.columbia.edu/school/section/programs/urban-planning/admissions-registration)</p>
<p>Looks like you’ll have to find another option :(</p>