<p>However, what seems to be taken for granted as “middle class” today in terms of houses, cars, vacations, etc. would be seen as luxuries for the super-rich (if even available) a generation or few ago.</p>
<p>It may also be the case that “living in an expensive area” is partially due to perception that one has to live in a place with “better” public schools, due to declining opinions of public schools in general, so people all bid up the prices in the “better” public school areas. I.e. access to a “better” public K-12 school is often a large cost that is hidden and embedded in housing cost (the alternative is to not care about the public K-12 schools and explicitly pay for private K-12 school, assuming that there are decent options in that space near the lower cost to live areas).</p>
<p>No, DS does not have a car AND live in Manhattan. He lives in the suburbs, right now he’s back home. Had the car from when he worked upstate and needed one. It’s now paid off and he uses it to commute to the train station, and get around in the suburbs. It’s a constant source of wavering whether to sell it or not Was working two jobs for a while and it was needed to do so. Now, not so much. A problem is that we (DH and I) have only one car, so it’s not like there is a spare here for him to use when he needs it. </p>
<p>My brother has no car and never did in the city, nor does my son who lives in Manhattan. And we are the rare one car suburban family. When DH’s car engine cracked, we never replaced it. And believe me, my car is a junker.</p>
<p>It also seems to be a rather flexible status, since people seem to be defining it so as to extend the “middle class” as far upward as convenient (typically to include themselves, even if in the top 10% or so of income and wealth).</p>
<p>ucbalumnus–once again, it’s not a function of income…until you understand that you won’t get it. Someone could be top 10% of income in Manhatten and STILL need to share an apartment with 10 guys. All the income percentages tell you is that 50% of the people make more than you, 50% make less, keeping in mind that the 50% that make less also include my kid, working for minimum wage, 10 hours/week…and Bill Gates.</p>
<p>But do you have to live in Manhattan, or can you live in a cheaper place and take the subway to a job in Manhattan?</p>
<p>I know about expensive places to live in, but lots of people choose to live in less expensive places and commute in. It is not like one has to live in the expensive place that takes up all of one’s money to leave nothing for a “middle class lifestyle”.</p>
<p>ucbalumnus–no, you don’t “have” to live anywhere but the problem you are having is that income does NOT define middle class. Even from your town to my town, whatever those may be, the money needed to live a middle class lifestyle will be different. A family of 4 in our area would qualify for food stamps on $50K, certainly not middle class if you use that 60K figure in the title now is it?</p>
<p>A good public school was a necessity for us. With 5 kids, it was on the top of our list. i also wanted a large house, which is what is killing us financially. That and private school were and are our luxuries and our financial money pits. We could have financially rich without those two indulgences that we chose.</p>
<p>Ucbalumnus, my recent college grad lived in the butler’s pantry between the dining room and kitchen of the house, he and 5 others rented. Two “hobos” lived in the dining room and split the $200 rent that the three guys downstairs paid,while the guys upstairs each had his own bedroom for the princely sum of $400 plus utilities (all three combined). Son would extol the built in cabinetry and drawers in his “room”. When brother was to come to visit, there were odd looks when I mentioned, how he could take the floor in a sleeping bag. There wasn’t 6 inches between the cabinetry and the mattress which had to be raised sideways to open the lower drawers. So he lived, and this was in a low rent area.</p>
<p>As I said, different people have different definition. If you don’t agree with this definition, it’s fine
But your attitude of self-righteousness is really annoying. Calling others’ statement as “■■■■■ statement”, common.
Are you the only judge of every definition?</p>
<p>I feel very strongly that the terms lower, middle and upper should be paired with income, rather than class. Here is why: we earn over $200,000 per year, which is pretty good, but we are not middle or upper “class” in the context of higher education because neither of us went to college and my husband is functionally illiterate. While we have an excellent income, both of my older kids could have really benefited from some of the non-monetary support offered to first generation college kids who are low income. There’s a sort of across the board assumption that income at certain levels brings knowledge or experience that it doesn’t always involve. That’s just me. I don’t expect others to agree.</p>
<p>“Fascinating discussion with excellent points.”</p>
<p>Right now I don’t know what several posters are even trying to say!</p>
<p>I do think that there are a few posters who are due for a rather large attitude adjustment in the financial smugness sector someday when reality raises its ugly head and bites hard.</p>
<p>It only takes one misstep, one death, one illness, one mental health crisis, one poorly played financial gamble, one real estate crash, one unexpected problem for any one of us to be struggling financially.</p>
<p>zoosermom–income does matter, the problem is, 200K does not have the same buying power everywhere which is why defining “middle class” by a set income level is meaningless.</p>
<p>zoosermom - I agree with you. There is no way one could measure if someone is a middle class by how they live because people are different. Two families living in the same area, making similar amount of money, could be living very differently because of their priorities and needs. One family could have a lot of medical or learning disability issues. One family may want to eat all organic, while another thinks having Stouffers is gourmet. One family may shop at Goodwill and another would only shop at Macy’s. One family may think going to visit grandma at another state is a vacation and another family may want to go to an island. All of those little extras add up when you are of certain income level. </p>
<p>On the other hand, with all the discussion of cost of living being different at parts of the country, there are only few factors which are different - housing costs and commuting costs. Housing costs usually take up 30-40% of most people’s gross income, and it is the biggest differentiator. Across the US, food, car, gas, clothes, air travel, all cost about the same. If you equalize housing costs then you could then compare apple with apple.</p>
<p>Oldfort, I don’t agree that everything like gas/ food/ goods are about the same across the states. I have seen some pretty significant differences in the prices
Of those items from state to state. </p>
<p>One can find inexpensive housing around Manhattan. The issue is that you get far less in terms of size of home, quality of school district, safeness of the area, condition of the home, type of neighborhood around Manhattan and other expensive areas. One of old time gurus, Garland, lives close to Manhattan in an inexpensive neighborhood. If you know the area, know people, it’s easier to find these enclaves and nuances. As a transplant it’s much more difficult. </p>
<p>We moved here from the midwest and it was quite a culture and sticker price shock. Still am not over it. We’d own our home there as most of our neighbors do. I don’t think we ever will here.</p>
<p>I live on Staten Island, cptofthehouse, and the housing prices are about 1/3 of those in Manhattan, the schools as a general matter are much, much, much better than the public schools in Manhattan. There is very little crime and good access to medical care. The most pressing problem is transportation. It is hellacious on Staten Island and sucks the quality of life right down the toilet. So it’s a tradeoff. We go for the big, nice house and great schools, but my commute is documentably one of the worst in the nation. Someday I will move to Florida!</p>
<p>Agree with SteveMA, income does matter but income is not the only factor, cost of living is another. One more factor is that someone owning a business can live in a bigger house, drive nicer cars, have many more vacations than the family with higher income showing up in W2. And they still qualify for FAid. I know people lke this. because their income is calculated differently.</p>