Schools pick you, you don’t pick them - a hook today may be an anchor tomorrow. I think all a kid can do is to be a well rounded “kid” - it is high school after all, and they’ll end up in a good place. Maybe they won’t get into a reach for them as luck has a lot to do with it, but they’ll likely get into a target and have a great experience. Yes, everyone wants to have the choice to say yes or no to a reach for them, but it doesn’t always happen and that’s ok.
“I’d say McGill/Toronto/UBC are roughly equivalent to UMich/UW-Wisconsin/UW-Seattle, and the last two aren’t too difficult to enter if you can pay.”
In terms of how hard it is to get in, I think that you are entirely correct.
In terms of the “prestige” of the name, I guess that it is in the eye of the beholder. However, perhaps one of the main points of this thread is that we shouldn’t be concerned about “prestige” (and there is a fine line between “prestigious” and “pretentious”).
In terms of academic strength, I think that it is quite difficult to know. I have heard a variety of different opinions (all of which would agree that your list of six schools are all academically very strong – which might be more important than ranking them). I do know one person who did his Bachelor’s and Master’s at McGill, and PhD at the University of Washington in Seattle. On the one hand this suggests that he thought that UW-Seattle was a reasonable place to go after McGill. On the other hand, when he arrived at Seattle his advisor carefully went through with him all the courses that he had taken, and what he had learned. At the end of the conversation the advisor told him “you have already completed all of the courses that you need for your PhD, but you are required to take two years of courses. You can take anything that you want to take”. Personally I got better grades as a graduate student at Stanford than as a graduate student at UBC, but I think this might have been because the professors were willing to hand out more really difficult work at Stanford, and by completing it, it became easier to earn the “+” after the “A”. Also, at Stanford I was majoring in the right subject for me. I think that Stanford probably was academically a bit stronger than UBC, even if I got better grades at Stanford.
Regarding McGill vs U.Mich, I guess that I would say that either is going to be academically very challenging; if you can handle it then either is going to be very good; there is no practical reason to go to a “bigger name” school than these two; and in either case you are going to need a very good winter coat. I guess this does count as “rough equivalence”.
There are Four Piles: Accepted, Rejected, Waitlisted (usually a Soft Reject) and Burned Up in a Fire.
Those that are “Burned Up in a Fire” are those who don’t have the stats, but apply anyway. Those that are Rejected and Waitlisted have the stats, but no other especially compelling reason to be chosen. Those that are accepted have some sort of Hook: Talent, Obstacle to Overcome, URM, Geographic Oddity, Exceptionally Poor, Persecuted, Unusual Accomplishment, Celebrity, Offspring of Celebrity, etc.
Having “lots of ECs” (even if president/co-captain of all of them) is not enough to constitute a “hook.”
@Trisherella: Not that easy to separate. Some that have no especially compelling reason get admitted and some with a major hook get rejected.
I think we just have to accept that elite American private uni admissions is pretty capricious.
The good news is that for any goal, there are usually other ways to reach them (ways that are more under your control than traditional freshman admissions). Whether that be being in a community of smart, motivated kids, being challenged intellectually, research resources, the prestigious college name, or even prestige industry recruiting.
Before thinking about the answer to your question, consider why it is so difficult to get in, simply from a mathematical perspective.
- About 4 million American students are headed for college in the Fall.
- The 8 Ivy League colleges, MIT, & Stanford have abt. 16,000 places available annually (combined).
- If 10% of places go to athletes and 10% to international students, that leaves abt 13,000 seats.
- If only students in the top 1% applied to those schools, they could still only admit about 1/3 of them.
@Much2learn: The percentage of athletes is actually higher than 10% at the Ivies. Over 20% at some. Add in everyone hooked and with something compelling, and the number of slots for those who are merely stellar and non-URM and unhooked is well less than half. Maybe a quarter.
Agree, less than a 1/4 at some schools. Williams had a record high 60% URM and First Gen; add in 10% athletic recruits, maybe 8% international, same number of legacies and that leaves what 14% for regular admits - 14% of 1300 admits (I would guess) = 182. Lets says its 250; still incredibly small.
Ok, so the overall answer is find an EC that you are passionate about, however I honestly do not feel very engaged by many of the ECs at my school.
The main (and only) extracurricular I have right now is Student Government. Which in all honesty is something that I really really enjoy doing. I know that at some high schools Student Government is seen as a joke that the very loud and school spirited kids do for fun, but at my school all of the students in it are very serious and we do a lot for the school. My goal for my senior year is to be either Student Body President or Vice President (at a school of 2000 students), which are both really big tasks. Would that be considered a good EC?
Also, what are some ways to find other good ECs? (and please do not say “Create one/a club”)
@200287791 look at the pinned posts in the chances forum. There is a whole thread on it. And no seasoned poster would EVER say create your own club.
@200287791 My daughter’s ECs were not school related. She had a strong history of volunteering with some well known groups in her interest area. If you don’t like what the school offers, look outside of it. That is perhaps better anyways because it shows initiative and community mindedness.
ESSAYS ESSAYS ESSAYS!!! My essays were the reason I got in because I was able to be eloquent, descriptive, vivid, creative, and true to myself. My scores and ECs are nowhere near as excellent as some students who’ve gotten rejected, but I was able to connect the bridge to the admissions counselors as to why I would be a worthy and impactful student at their institution (and consequently, got into Brown with a 1300 SAT).
To tie together some points already made: 16,000 slots at the big prestigious schools. Of those, a significant portion are made up of “other” i.e. not the average one percenter from high school. So at best there are 12,000 slots available.
The most recent stats I found say that the number of students scoring 33, 34, 35, 36 on ACT was ~57,000. Of course, not all will apply to those top schools but I guess a majority of those students to apply to at least one as a reach school. If you add the 31-32 ACT students, that is another 68,000. Add in foreign students who apply in droves and soon it is a very crowded field.
On the one hand, there are some really outstanding students who get accepted to these schools. One the other hand they could be pulling names out of a hat. They pump up the marketing to solicit applications, hire temporary readers to look at apps students have labored over, and run them through the black box. 30,000 apps x $50 to be kind = $1.5 million a year for the admissions department so they can reject 80-90% of those applications.
I doubt the commonly asserted notion that these schools are crafting the ideal class based on some arcane methodology of how many oboe players they need and so forth. The best schools have yields of 50% so they would need to draft Noah’s ark of ideal classes to hope for hitting the mark. Even a yield of 30% is not that bad so there is no way for them to craft a class apart from covering a few areas like sports.
What schools are you targeting? For most schools the most important factors are rigorous courses, gpa and test scores. I would strongly suggest that you make those three things as strong as you can. For most schools, ECs will not have a huge impact unless they translate into a good essay.
@WISdad23: The proportion of slots for average one percenters (and everyone else unhooked) is probably more like a quarter at the Ivies/equivalents, and even among that group, they’re looking for the most exceptional in a variety of ways.
@TiggerDad That’s what I did too. Early on, I realized the same and told my kid he can get into Stanford with 33 ACT and 3.9 gpa, and encouraged him to spend his time on good ECs and getting challenging and interesting experiences to write good essays. Our challenge was to stick to our plan and not waver. He got into his number one match school Berkeley and a dream reach school Stanford REA. He only applied to 5 schools. Absolutely no hooks of any kind. My kid really researched Stanford culture, history and talked to students to craft an application that will clearly and in a likable manner convey his unique (not better) self. I felt he could not do the same for other top 5 schools so we did not even apply.
Oh, my kid was around 20th out of 500 students.
@websensation - There you go, congrats on your son’s admission to Berkeley and Stanford! I’m sure he’ll do very well at either of those places.
Being a parent of a child with Avg scores and GPA who got into her dream school, I have to concur that its about being passionate with your EC’s and having great essays that show that passion. My D is very passionate about a camp for underprivileged kids and all activities that surround it, such as fundraising, volunteering at the camp and so on. She had many other EC’s and did many things outside the box, as opposed to the typical clubs. Her essays all reflected these and the reality of her passion and how she wants to take all that forward.
Her teacher recommendations were also stellar, and not from the typical teachers.
I have another child who is going to be one of those dime a dozen high score, high GPA, many AP’s. But I have no illusions about getting into a top school . I can say as a parent that this child doesnt “stand out”
A big part of it is knowing yourself. Developmentally that is what should be going on in high school, not checking boxes. Middle schoolers are naturally very concerned what others think of them. Ideally one grows from there and tries to figure out what makes THEM comfortable, what THEY enjoy, what is important to THEM. If that process is not truncated, as is often the case today, a student will be well prepared to find a college that meets THEIR needs and is a good fit for them. Then they will have a better chance to get into a “good” college because they are emotionally developed enough to pursue their goals in a mature way.
Answering your question on student body president (SBP). There is a SBP at every private and public school in the country. So it matters what you do with it. My S was SBP. Unfortunately or fortunately for essays, it was a mess when he took over. He quickly did many things to “fix” things and then gained a reputation at his school as a doer. This gave him lots more opportunities to serve on many adult only committees and do even more. It gave him lots of fodder for college essays and I think that, combined with recommendations that highlighted how he elevated that role, and really good stats, made a good package for college admittance. But frankly while I am talking about SBP, you could really do that with any role, in or out of school. Take responsibility, run with it, and show the passion that the schools always talk about.
I think OP is missing the point when asking, “Would that be considered a good EC?” A “good” EC is one that YOU like and YOU want to be heavily involved in. D’s EC’s at her public HS included:
- 4 years track & field (jumping captain, girls captain);
- 3 years tennis (2 varsity doubles);
- 3 years mock trial (witness/pretrial/lead defense attorney and team captain);
- 1 play;
- juried countywide art show finalist, city wide art contest winner;
- NHS/CSF - volunteer hours (the standard academic clubs EVERYONE is a member of);
- part-time job (food service).
That’s it - all over the map, based on her interests. Nothing stellar when compared to the amazing resumes of so many I’ve read about on this site, but other than NHS/CSF, none of these were entered into with the thought that they would look good on a college resume. Either they were carryovers from middle school activities or things friends talked her into doing or she thought would be “fun”. The key was that she could write about them in an interesting and compelling way. Her grades/test scores/class ranking got her through the first round, but her well-written essays probably got her the into the schools it did (great letters of rec helped, too, I suspect).
So, yes, @latinvibes ESSAYS (although D did NOT get into Brown lol). She’s at Cal (probably STEM) and way OK with that.