How do you choose in HYP? and why?

<p>Hi all, I haven't contributed in awhile...hope you are all doing well. I want to say how much I agree with Bandit_TX and katwkittens and others. If your child has not already done so and you have the financial wherewithal to afford it, the most important thing to do is VISIT. I suspect after a visit, there will be an epiphany. </p>

<p>My D actually only attended one Admitted Student Days, but had visited the other schools that she was accepted to at least once, and some twice, prior to acceptance. Although she could concisely give reasons for her final choice, it really did come down to the gut feeling. We had purchased plane tickets for her to go to both Bulldog Days (which came first chronologically) and Pre-Frosh Days at Harvard (she had visited both schools twice before, but always with us tagging along). This time she was going alone. We had a hunch she'd made her decision when she called home from Science Hill at Yale and said "I feel like I belong here". Two days later we picked her up at the airport at 11 PM...she was carrying a Bulldog tie for her dad and a dog collar for our husky/shepherd dog with Yale on it. And she asked if we would "really" mind it if she didn't use the ticket to Boston the following week to go to Harvard. We all talk about "fit" when our kids are making their lists. When it comes down to the accepted schools, all else being equal (financial factors, travel, etc.), I think it often comes down to "gut".</p>

<p>mini, I bet my anti-Semitic roommate was more anti-Semitic than your anti-Semitic roommate.</p>

<p>My take on Harvard competitiveness is that it has more to do with ECs than academics. </p>

<p>Tangential: The NYT Sunday magazine (available saturday to home subscribers) has a cover story about attempts to reduce Chinese obsession with test scores. Guess which American university is featured?</p>

<p>"Harvard has the deepest pockets for ECs as well as funded travel."</p>

<p>Again, it really varies by EC. In my kid's favorite EC, H has far and away the WORST funding and the FEWEST opportunities. You're MUCH better off at Y or P or MIT for that matter. So, if you are interested in a particular EC, ASK.</p>

<p>As for anti-Semitism, one side effect of Hargadon's emphasis on geographic diversity is that it hurt those groups who tend to concentrate in a few geographic areas, notably Jews and Asians. Until recently, P still had less than half the percentage of Jews as H or Y.Ramaz, a private dual English/Hebrew curriculum school in NY got kids into H and Y year after year but almost never got kids into P.</p>

<p>After Hargadon was ousted, P made a big effort to get out and recruit at the urban publics. The # of kids accepted to P from Stuy tripled the first year after he left.</p>

<p>3 X 0 = 0 (that's how many were admitted in my day. In those days, we sent 18-20 a year to H, and about a dozen to Yale.) </p>

<p>"As for anti-Semitism, one side effect of Hargadon's emphasis on geographic diversity...</p>

<p>Sorry, I don't buy the "side effect" argument at all (and neither does Daniel Golden.) The "side effect" argument makes more sense at H., under Conant, 20-30 years earlier, who used the SAT to find "academically talented" youth from the midwest and etc. because he had too many who had studied up on their Greek and Latin in his backyard. Needless to say, none of the persuasion were ever accepted into the "happy bottom quarter".</p>

<p>"mini, I bet my anti-Semitic roommate was more anti-Semitic than your anti-Semitic roommate."</p>

<p>We should compare notes. To be fair, he wasn't too fond of (XXX's) either.</p>

<p>
[quote]
"Harvard has the deepest pockets for ECs as well as funded travel."</p>

<p>Again, it really varies by EC. In my kid's favorite EC, H has far and away the WORST funding and the FEWEST opportunities. You're MUCH better off at Y or P or MIT for that matter. So, if you are interested in a particular EC, ASK.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yes, this varies greatly from EC to EC, sometimes surprisingly so. Take debate, for example, typically dominated by the usual suspects (HPYM). Harvard has a debating society, but takes a limited number of debaters to competitions due to funding issues, which is really a pity since (a) the best way to improve at debate is to actually debate, and (b) it's tough to break in as a newbie (like me), and (c) they have some very good debaters.</p>

<p>I don't know how MIT's funding is, but Yale and Princeton lavish their debating societies. At Princeton, any debater can go to whichever tournament he/she chooses (and as many tournaments as he/she chooses), and the debate panel is totally open to everyone. Yale's debate panel is selective, but is also extremely well funded.</p>

<p>On the other hand, Harvard has the largest MUN organization, I believe, of the three.</p>

<p>Twinmom, yes thanks for the congrats! And he's going to do the visits before making any final decisions.</p>

<p>My roommate at Princeton was, and still is, Jewish:).</p>

<p>I would be extremely surprised to hear that anti-Semitism was still a problem at Princeton for anyone.</p>

<p>It certainly was a horrible problem in the first part of this century. On the other hand, neither I ( in the 70's), nor my D ( in the zeros), have been there for Hargadon. He was the Dean at Stanford in my day.</p>

<p>I'm Jewish, was also at Princeton in the 70's, and encountered only one (minor) instance of anti-Semitism there. In general it seemed to be a non-issue at the time, although I do understand that there were problems during the Hargadon years.</p>

<p>Yeah, antisemitism is essentially a non-issue at Princeton; I don't think it's ever really come up while I've been here.</p>

<p>What is an issue, however, is Latke vs. Hamantaschen...:p</p>

<p><a href="http://time-blog.com/eye_on_science/2006/03/the_great_debate.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://time-blog.com/eye_on_science/2006/03/the_great_debate.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Anti-Semitic roommates: The very first thing mine said to me, after introducing himself, was "They told me back home this was Jew Haven, but I had no idea it would be this bad!"</p>

<p>At Princeton: When I was visiting colleges, the buzz among Jewish students at Princeton was that when it admitted its first co-ed class (1972?), the percentage of Jews among the men was the same as it had been for years, i.e., about 15%. The percentage of Jewish women was the same as it was at Harvard and Yale at the time, i.e., about 30%. That was when Fred Hargadon was still at Stanford.</p>

<p>That said, I know many, many Jews at Princeton -- then, before then, since then -- all of whom loved it. It has had Jewish presidents, Jewish provosts, Jewish trustees. I don't think anti-Semitism is a live issue there.</p>

<p>The latke-hamantaschen thing: rip-off of Chicago. Jeepers, get your own damn traditions!</p>

<p>Stevenson Hall at Princeton, which had both kosher and non-kosher dining facilities, was a non-eating club option for students and was the first kosher dining facility in the Ivy League.<br>
<a href="http://etcweb.princeton.edu/CampusWWW/Companion/stevenson_hall.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://etcweb.princeton.edu/CampusWWW/Companion/stevenson_hall.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Subsequently, the Center for Jewish Life at Princeton was built. </p>

<p>"The Center for Jewish Life/Hillel at Princeton University is the central source for all things Jewish at Princeton. The Center for Jewish Life (or CJL) believes in creating a community where all students, faculty, staff and even the larger community can come together to take part in the rich tapestry of Jewish Life at Princeton.
The CJL is committed to creating a community that is welcoming of all people; Jews and non-Jews, religious and secular, men and women. Specifically we are committed to serving the students of Princeton University and surrounding colleges. Our doors are open, as are our hearts and minds.
The Center for Jewish Life building is owned and maintained by Princeton University through the Office of Religious Life in order to serve the Jewish needs of the Princeton University community. The University also runs the kosher dining hall. The building houses two auditoriums which are also used for prayer services, lectures, and other events, a kosher dining hall, library, Beit Midrash, computer cluster, lounge, offices, pool room and TV lounge. The building is handicapped accessible. Outside groups wishing to use the space are referred to Conference and Event Services. " </p>

<p><a href="http://www.princetonhillel.org/cjl_building.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.princetonhillel.org/cjl_building.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>From the above, it appears that Jewish students and Jewish life is strongly supported at Princeton.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Then add the slightly more Southern tradition at Princeton. But it's not about snobby. Princeton kids are almost unnervingly friendly and non-snobby.

[/quote]
Quite right. I am about as sensitive to snobbery and racism as they come. I have been on Princeton's campus tons of times, hung out with Princeton parents many times. At first, I sort of expected to encounter some sort of snobbish sleight or some other discomfort. Didn't happen. Each subsequent time I also expected snobbery. It never has happened. I can't say I have let my guard down against it because I somehow feel I have to believe that racism is an issue everywhere in America, but Princeton has never given me cause for this belief. The unvarnished fact is that I have never personally experienced anything other than respect and honor from Princeton folk, and I have been enough around them so that were there a snob problem, it would have expressed itself. I suppose Harvard and Yale folks are as decent. I know nothing about them-- yet (though I have a Yalie parent buddy here on CC that sure makes Yale seem welcoming to me), but I think I can confidently say that you can't go anywhere and find more charming, more welcoming, more down-to-earth, and more just plain good and decent folks than you are gonna find at Princeton University.</p>

<p>Now, I have checked with my kid often on this stuff. I am ALWAYS checking to see if the alleged Snobs of Princeton are gonna hunt down and hurt my kid. Here we are, poor by any general American standard, rich by our own standard, and with kids sitting smack dab in the middle of all those rich folks. So how is it going? Maybe there are economic snobs at Princeton. My kid reports she has never encountered them. She certainly has encountered lots of rich folk (LOTTA rich folks!). But she has never reported anyone who has in any way belittled her because of her race or class - and I have asked very many times about this. My kid tells me that at Princeton, no one gives you anything. No one is gonna go easy on you or give you a nudge, or give you anything at all. You will not even get the benefit of the doubt. If you get any benefit at all it will be because of your own hard work. But she says if you want to make it happen, no one will get in your way. In fact, if you prove that you want to make it happen, many people, purely out of respect, will give you tips. And if from there you keep at it, eventually they will work with you out of mutual friendship and respect. First semester out, she took an honors course in number theory. Study groups formed and kids sorted themselves quickly. She did very well and gained lots of respect. She reports that even now she has good friends from that group, though they have gone on to other things. She also said when the course was finally over, when she wrote her last "Q.E.D." for the class, she fought tears. Now, you just can't get that kinda thing at some place filled with a bunch of preppy snobs. As a dad, I could not have even dared to dream about such a place for my kid.</p>

<p>I am sure Harvard and Yale have stuff like this. They are amazing places. I don't yet have experience with them, but c'mon - you don't get to be Yale and Harvard by acting like just any old school. But I don't know about them-- yet. I know about Princeton. If a guy like me can feel at home there, and if my kid can get on there, well, that snob stuff is just total nonsense.</p>

<p>you know, i've been a little 'out of sorts' this afternoon. Probably shouldn't have stopped at Dairy Queen going north to drop off my daughter and then again on the way down 4 hours later(without revealing my earlier visit.) The girls were happy with the first ice cream of the season. I requested two different types of candy mixed into mine than at the earlier stop. Happily, the counter person didn't comment on my return. Daughter would have scolded me. Anyway, that explains my sludgebrained late afternoon. But the above prose, dross, just put me right, just slapped all that fat right out of my system. Your clear thinking is always a gift. Thanks.</p>

<p>This is one thing that I agree with Dross.</p>

<p>"But she says if you want to make it happen, no one will get in your way."</p>

<p>The word 'NO' is not in vocabulary of Princeton faculty and staff.</p>

<p>But, I am certain that it is also true at HYS&M and other elite schools.</p>

<p>we are splitting hairs here.</p>

<p>This is the best thread ever discussing these three schools No one faced with this choice can go wrong, as long as they aren't killing the family finances, and as long as they go with their gut. In fact, if anyone wants to dive in with Stanford and MIT, we can have the first ever HYPSM thread which is wholly civil:). Drosselmeier, all this time I never knew you had a D at Princeton too. I am so glad to hear she likes it there.</p>

<p>My D, about as white as you get from a sheer pigmentation perspective, decided on Princeton v. Stanford because the dance performances at the Princeton hosting weekend included a tradition, which I understand is African American, of a rhythmic call-and-response, which somehow made her feel like the place had a heart. FWIW.</p>

<p>And I agree - love your prose D:).</p>

<p>^^I agree. For some reason this thread has wonderfully focused on the attributes of these three fine schools and has not degenerated into rival school bashing by the partisans. I wish we could always confine the HYP bad manners and trash talking to the day(s) of the big football game(s).</p>

<p>You know why?......one poster has been AWOL for a while. You know him, alumother knows him, marite knows him...</p>

<p>Agree. D has to visit. However, I disagree with bandit. D visited Y and H and got two very distinct feelings. Felt at home at Y, and felt cold at H. Depends on the kid. Also she attended competitions at H the last 2 years, and says the feel hasn't changed. So please make sure your D visits. She may feel differently. The "fit" argument really comes into play here.</p>

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<p>Sure, but nearly all these threads go south quickly, even without you know who.</p>