<p>I wonder if anyone here has experienced this same feeling--
I play flute and I'm currently a junior in high school; I'm extremely passionate about spending my life doing music, but I can't figure out whether or not I belong at a conservatory. All the "starving Juilliard graduate" and "you won't even know how to balance your own checkbook" stories are killing me. I have lots of musical potential, but I want to be able to explore broad (and I mean REALLY broad) genres of music and I'm also really interested in music composition, writing, and psychology. I don't know if all of that is fanciful kind of thinking that most people put away when they pick a "practical" career like a lawyer or doctor, but trying to imagine a college setting where I wouldn't be able to explore other things makes me feel trapped and panicky.
My flute teacher is acting like going anywhere but a top conservatory with a top flute teacher is "second rate" and won't get me anywhere as far as a job with an orchestra is concerned. (But do I even WANT a job with an orchestra?!) I've looked into a lot of different schools, both conservatories and universities. But I feel like all those prestigious university programs (Eastman at URochester and Peabody at John Hopkins) look really closely at your grades and mine absolutely suck.
Does anyone have any advice as to what I should aim for as far as college goes? Would attending anything other than a conservatory really be cheating myself, as he said, or is there some kind of program for people who screwed up academics in high school but still want to study other things?</p>
<p>Choosing a conservatory for undergrad vocal performance doesn’t appear to give singers a leg up compared to those graduating from other schools, but I have no idea if that is the case for the flute. I can tell you that Peabody does not factor in grades or scores very much with regard to admission. You do not have to be admitted to Hopkins. The audition is what is important.</p>
<p>One way of seeing if you’ll enjoy the conservatory situation is to attend one of the more rigorous summer programs like Tanglewood, Interlochen, etc., where every waking moment of the day is music related. It’s a great barometer for both prospective students and their parents.</p>
<p>I think you have answered your own question. If doing music 24/7 makes you feel “trapped and panicky”, you probably are better off pursuing a BA music major in a college or university than a BM in a conservatory or music school. There is nothing at all wrong with this path, and that way you could explore all kinds of other options, as well as music.</p>
<p>Zep has sound advice, and a summer immersion program is often a make or break factor in making the choice of path fairly clear. A program the ilk of Tanglewood, Interlochen, and a few others will be the closest you will come to a conservatory experience outside of one. Being surrounded by exceptional talent, dedicated and serious students passionate about what they are doing may be just the right environment, or the completely wrong one. </p>
<p>Take the time to read the Peabody link here [Peabody</a> Institute - Conservatory Admissions: The Double Degree Dilemma](<a href=“http://www.peabody.jhu.edu/doubledegree]Peabody”>Double Degree | Peabody Institute) and pay particular attention to Jennifer and Howard. Define yourself as best as you can.</p>
<p>A straight conservatory will get you music 24/7, with minimal core academics, and with the exception of a few extremely rigorous and competitive cross registration programs, not much exposure to much else.</p>
<p>A conservatory level program within a university setting may allow you the flexibility to explore other areas of interest, but realize that a BM curriculum doesn’t allow too much room for non-music exploratory electives. Start looking into the actual degree requirements and differences between BA & BM paths as -Allmusic- suggests.</p>
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<p>The second comment suggests to me that you are an unlikely candidate for a straight conservatory, insofar as you yourself just don’t know. Flute is extremely competitive, and you will most likely be surrounded by peers who want nothing else but to be offered a chair, and will be totally dedicated to wanting to achieve that goal. The first comment suggests you might begin to potentially explore music education or music therapy.</p>
<p>A couple of part threads with additional perspectives:
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/492746-conservatory-vs-lac-performance-program.html?highlight=conservatory[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/492746-conservatory-vs-lac-performance-program.html?highlight=conservatory</a>
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/339355-b-music-major-disadvantage-school-conservatory.html?highlight=conservatory[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/339355-b-music-major-disadvantage-school-conservatory.html?highlight=conservatory</a></p>
<p>Look into some of the options at schools like Oberlin, Bard, Lawrence, Gettysburg, St. Olaf’s. Academic admissions criteria may or may not be an issue, as this is CC and “grades that suck” is a relative term.</p>
<p>Hi there. I am also a junior flute player looking at conservatories. I did a bunch college/conservatory visits during my spring break which gave me a really good idea of where I want to be.</p>
<p>As violadad posted above, I think you should really consider Bard Con. You’d be able to study with a really, really terrific teacher (Tara O’Connor) and you’d be really close to the college. Also, think about University of the Pacific (it’s in California). Another one might be NYU for you to look at. Depending on how badly your grades “suck,” this could be a great place because you could study with Robert Dick if you decide you want to go into Avant Garde playing.
PM me if you have any questions, and there’s also some other flute people on here.</p>
<p>I will add that if someone tells you ‘conservatory is the only way to go’ that keep in mind that is their perspective.There are people who will tell you in the violin world that the only way you will ‘make it’ is if you attend Juilliard or Curtis, and that is hogwash, people have perspectives (including myself) based on our own experience. Pre college and conservatory programs are filled with more then a few kids who believe that simply getting into those places will guarantee them being a hotshot soloist or orchestra musician,when most of them won’t even get close statistically or otherwise (actually,I claim being at a ‘hotshot’ school can work against a student because of that assumption, that if maybe they went to a place they felt didn’t guarantee them being X, they would work harder:). </p>
<p>I think the advice some others have given is sound, to go to an intensive program like Tanglewood or Interlochen or Bowdoin or one of the myriad others,to see if that is the life you seek. Especially in programs where you will be working with a private teacher, plus chamber and orchestra, can you see if you want to do it. Not sure where you live, but you also may want to try and get into a youth orchestra program and maybe chamber music to see if that appeals to you. In the intensive programs you generally are required to practice at least several hours a day (the one my son goes to requires 4), plus orchestra and/or chamber, and private and ‘studio’ lessons as well,not to mention attending performances by other attendees and faculty. Our son when he first attended such a program, though he had other issues (he was probably too young, and also had something of a culture clash/socialization issue) also found he loved doing the music and it helped him on the path to ‘getting serious’ he is now on. On the other hand, you might find yourself saying “what the heck am I doing here”…</p>
<p>From my albeit limited perspective I would say the conservatory route should be if you have a good idea you want to go that route,where music is the focus of your life and future, I think if you have big doubts (I am sure even the best players at times look at themselves and say “are you crazy” <em>lol</em>) it may be better for you to pursue music where there are other options. The big thing, as others have pointed out, in music is the teacher, about a place having a good teacher/teachers on the instrument/voice that is your speciality,plural being better because ‘good teacher’ varies, and you might find that at a non conservatory.</p>
<p>And I agree with another poster, you may want to check out Bard,it might fit the bill from what I have seen. I am very curious to see what they are doing there/going to do there, from everything I have been seeing and hearing it might turn out to be a very interesting place to study:)</p>
<p>The original poster states that her/his grades “absolutely suck” so Bard may be beyond even a “reach” school for her/him. Admission to Bard Conservatory is dependent on admission to Bard College. Bard College is a tougher admit than the University of Rochester and comparable to or perhaps tougher than Johns Hopkins, both of which the poster seems to have rejected as beyond him/her academically. Bard accepts 25% of applicants while U of R accepts 43%. The middle 50% of Bard’s admits had SAT verbal scores between 680 and 740 while the middle 50% at Johns Hopkins had 630 to 740. Bard’s website suggests that interested students have a GPA of at least 3.5 with a transcript indicating that a demanding high school programme has been undertaken. </p>
<p>As many have wisely suggested, the poster should look for an excellent teacher who is a good fit. Chances are an excellent teacher will also have an excellent studio that will help create an environment conducive to musical growth and challenge. There are some excellent teachers at schools that accept those whose grades “absolutely suck.”</p>
<p>Doesn’t sound like a conservatory is for you since ,at least at this point, you don’t live, breathe and sleep music.Do consider a summer program, if you can, but the time to do it would be this summer, if you are a rising senior, and that might be impossible unless a program has a last minute cancellation (doesn’t hurt to ask though…). Another point to consider- why are your grades bad? Do you not work, skip classes or is there a learning problem of some sort? If it’s just lack of motivation then you have to wonder if that might carry over to college…whatever it is, you have to get things up and running in order for a decent school to look at you.
Take a look a Rice in Texas, they have a very good music program along with liberal arts classes galore and, if you decide to major in music, they are not as strict with their grades and test scores. SUNY Potsdam has the Crane School of Music.I know there are several on the boards here who are very familiar with Lawrence in Wisconsin, which is worth a look.
You’ve gotten some great advice from others here, especially violadad, who knows all of the ins and outs. Make good use of this site and don’t be afraid to ask questions.</p>
<p>I don’t think Rice is really a good option. First, they do care about grades, and require SAT IIs. Second, if you are in the music school, you are in a conservatory. There isn’t a lot of crossover.</p>
<p>I am of the opinion that, unless you are a star in the making, grades matter at most music schools. In general, basic skills required for a successful musician, like organization, hard work, perseverance - show up in academics. And things like theory and transposition and sight-reading require a fair amount of intelligence. Grades are not the only marker of intelligence, (nor are the always accurate) but they are often the only thing the school has to go by. </p>
<p>If grades aren’t good in high school, there is no real reason to expect them to soar in college. So you may want to be careful about aiming too high academically. You could end up needing so much time studying your other subjects, you don’t have time to practice. The whole idea of “fit” doesn’t just have to do with getting in. It also has to do with staying in.</p>
<p>If I were the helicopter mom of the OP, I would be searching for colleges (using sites like College boards college finder) that fit the OPs SAT and GPS, and narrow it down further by looking for schools that offer psychology, music and other things the OP is interested in. </p>
<p>From there, start looking at music teachers and programs in those schools. See if any of those schools are talked about here or elsewhere. Visit the schools, study the websites, etc. There are a lot of good teachers out there, hidden gems. If you have a great flute teacher for undergrad, and decide you really want music, then you will be in a position to take your education up a notch in grad school.</p>
<p>I think it makes sense to start with schools where you are a reasonable fit, then add your outliers - reaches and safeties - after that.</p>
<p>Take a look at Oberlin Conservatory - admission is 80% audition, so your grade point average may not be a problem; they have a strong flute program, and the academic program is serious and challenging in the conservatory for music and theory, and you can take regular college courses every semester. Conservatory students also live and eat with college students, so there is a wide variety of interests - not everyone you know would be music 24/7.</p>
<p>I wouldn’t think the School of Music at Rice would be a good choice but because I have always understood that the academics are very challenging there. Isn’t there a pretty intense distribution requirement of general education courses? I think it is set up similarly to my D’s school. Negotiating all the music classes and a heavy load of general education classes is tough.</p>
<p>Binx and Cartera- I am wondering if something new is going on at Rice? There is another thread going where posters claim that if one is applying to the music school there, the test scores/GPA required are lower than those for the university. Also, a classmate of D’s will be going there next year and her grades are nothing special (she was actually rejected from two schools where she was a legacy along with several other schools- only accepted at Rice and another, non-audition school). I do agree with you in that they do have a lot of gen ed requirements though, but I don’t know how challenging they are. This girl and my D are both VP majors and we know that the other girl’s music classes are nowhere near as heavy as Ds will be.Has something changed? I was under the same initial impression as you, but based my post upon the info above. Come to think of it, the OP in this thread might do well to look into a LAC with a good orchestral program…
Here is the link to the thread I was referring to: There are a couple of posts re.Rice from singersmom07
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/721361-how-impt-sats-vp-majors.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/721361-how-impt-sats-vp-majors.html</a></p>
<p>I’m not saying that the music school at Rice can’t pull people in who wouldn’t get into Rice alone but you do have to be admitted to both - unless something has changed that I’m not aware of. However, once you get there, the general education classes are with the other students I assume and the classes won’t be a cake walk. So music kids who get in without the grades and scores of the other kids could find themselves struggling academically.</p>
<p>I can tell you how my D reached the conclusion that she wanted to be in a conservatory environment.</p>
<p>Right through her junior year, she insisted that she wanted a small university or an LAC with a good music program to avoid “hanging with other music nerds 24/7”.</p>
<p>After her summer experience last year in the Opera Institute for Young Singers program though, she came to feel that she’d always done her best work when she was in a more pure music environment and would probably be better off going that way in college. For that reason, she concentrated her search for a school on conservatories, eventually settling on Eastman.</p>
<p>Because you want some study outside of the music department, if you do want the conservatory environment consider schools with an direct affiliation with a college or university such as Oberlin with Oberlin College, Peabody with Johns Hopkins, or Eastman with U-Rochester. Other schools have looser cooperative programs with nearby colleges such as New England Conservatory’s with Northeastern University, but the cross registration is more of a hassle and schedules may not match up exactly.</p>
<p>Good luck.</p>
<p>Thanks everyone for all the great advice so far!! </p>
<p>Based off the site and collegeboard alone, Bard seems like a nice option, although it’s a bit more suburban than my ideal college and the whole “episcopal church” thing might be a problem. Is that just historical, or is it heavily involved in the college?
I’ve actually looked into Rice before, and I’d probably apply in an instant if it was a couple states closer. (I’m in New Jersey. How will I visit my cat?!)
Is going farther away from home common for music majors? Probably 90% of the people I know end up at county, Rutgers, or at most a 2 hour car ride away so I assumed I’d do the same thing.</p>
<p>On Grades-
Binx- I’m definitely getting the vibe that you think grades are a “pretty good marker” of intelligence (haha hopefully I’m wrong). Not to toot my own horn, but I broke 2000 SAT’s on the first time around (although I fell asleep at one point because I’d stayed up cramming for the math section). So yeah, time management is a bit of an issue. I know I need to get my act together, but I feel like I’ll do a lot better in college for the reason that while people emphasize “fit” in college, nobody considers that high school might not be a good “fit” for some people. I’m not saying that my crappy work ethic is excusable, but I think I don’t think I’m dumb to the point of being unable to sightread and transpose…
I start off each year really well but as soon as I hit winter my grades plummet. This brings me to a GPA of about 2.79. My weighted one is a lot better because I take 3-4 honors/AP classes a year (also a mistake, but I happen to be interested in them). I was planning on making a comeback this year, when I started taking school seriously, but taking it seriously just caused me to have several nervous breakdowns, leaving me with mostly C averages again.
I may have screwed up pretty badly in high school, but that doesn’t negate the fact that there’s a ton of non-music subjects I want to study. Especially if they’re not based off of regurgitating information and doing busy work like high school is.</p>
<p>Several people suggested the summer music program, but as Mezzo’sMama stated, registration is closed for everything now.
I’m not doubting that I want to be immersed in music. But what do I do if I don’t necessarily want to be immersed in 100% classical music? I don’t have anything against it, but I feel like I want to be exposed to a lot of different styles aside from just 100%orchestral/chamber/classical music. I know there’s schools aimed at jazz, but I feel like I wouldn’t fit there either because I haven’t been exposed to jazz flute playing or anything…</p>
<p>I can add to the comment re Rice. Although DD was in the bottom 25 percentile of accepted students , her unweighted GPA was 3.87, her ACT was 30, SAT around 2000. So lower is a relative term. They will let some in with lower scores, you can see them in the class stats. [Rice</a> University | Prospective Students](<a href=“http://www.futureowls.rice.edu/futureowls/Admission_Statistics.asp?SnID=1105986438]Rice”>http://www.futureowls.rice.edu/futureowls/Admission_Statistics.asp?SnID=1105986438) or maybe grades. But Flute would also be a really tough audition admit. Rice orchestra is considered one of the top in the country. Voice has been easier in the past since it was a relatively new program, still growing.</p>
<p>They do take the required distribution for the most part with the regular Rice students, but DD has found classes that she can manage and there are always others that help in study groups. It is still a very intensive music curriculum. DD is taking 20 credit hours per term and usually only 1 or 2 classes outside music, one of which is her languages. </p>
<p>sprstr, we did find that music students looked further away from home than others because you look where you find the teachers that are best for you. For many reasons DD did not want to look too close to home where everyone from HS was going. And yes, she misses her dog, but flies home often enough for hug doses.</p>
<p>Concerning Bard - not sure where you got the idea that is an Episcopal college. Maybe at its founding, such as many a college was in the 19th century. More often the complaint is that there are too many atheists there! It’s also not a suburban campus - it’s a rural campus.</p>
<p>Concerning the heavy workload a double degree entails - I don’t think I would embark on it if I were you without a strong work ethic, and faith that you can stay the course. At a school like Bard, wanting to explore more avenues of music than just classical, I think you might be better off in the college itself getting a BA in music, than in the conservatory. </p>
<p>From Bard Conservatory’s FAQ regarding the difference between studying music in the conservatory vs. the Music Program in the college:</p>
<p>“The study of music in the Conservatory is strictly classical and focuses on traditional orchestral instruments, composition, and piano. Music majors in the Music Program have additional options to focus on jazz, electronic and experimental music, music theory and history, ethnomusicology, composition, as well as classical performance, and can study a greater range of instruments, including saxophone, guitar (electric and acoustic), and world instruments.”</p>
<p>For my son, as a composer, he intends to cross back and forth between the music programs - as a performance major in the Conservatory you wouldn’t have as much opportunity just because of practical time constraints - although, with initiative I get the feeling that anything can be accomplished at Bard.</p>
<p>sprstr–you sound like a very sharp kid indeed, and all this excellent information you are getting here has buried something Allmusic said way back and that I want to re-inject into the discussion: if you get panicky when you are concentrating on music all the time, be very very cautious about a conservatory. Because that’s what it is. You will study just about nothing else. My son did not even have one liberal arts class his freshman year. </p>
<p>Grades are not a marker of your intelligence!! There are a million stories out there of the people who succeed outside the “norm” that most high schools or even colleges set forward. Getting good grades is just one of many many skills that a student might have, and it’s not the most important one (in my opinion, but most educators feel somehow like this). </p>
<p>Two summer programs still open: Jazz in July at UMass Amherst (if there are still spaces)
Vermont Jazz Center</p>
<p>Hartt School of Music may be a good option for you. The University of Hartford academic requirements are manageable and I believe they still have a BA in music. As a BA Music person, you would be able to study with the teachers at Hartt (just maybe not the top ones). I went to school with Janet Arms who is now teaching flute at Hartt. She was a wonderful person and player back then and people rave about her now. The other flute teachers at Hartt are excellent also. Hartt gives you the environment of a conservatory and the University of Hartford offers many options for you to study beyond music. The school is right on the border of West Hartford and Hartford.</p>