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<p>They may very well be teachers but pressed for time.</p>
<p>Many, many state schools have been getting state subsidies cut. Research brings in money. Where do you cut?</p>
<p>Oh, for heaven’s sake, BCEagle91. I have attended two large state universities and worked for many years at one of them. I know that professors at large research universities are expected to be productive researchers. That’s a red herring. The people standing in front of groups of undergraduates in classes for which those undergraduates have paid money should be able to teach. That’s whether they are tenure-track professors, graduate assistants, adjunct faculty, visiting faculty, lecturers, whatever. If they can’t do that, if undergrads have to go online to get what they are PAYING to get in a classroom, it is reasonable for people to believe they are not getting full value for their money. If the lectures at a university are not good, many people do pursue other options. But the people who feel forced to pursue other options would be within their rights to complain about it!</p>
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<p>A student certainly could complain but it might be too late in the semester to do much about it by the time students realize the problem. My son had two lab TAs with poor communications and other problems and I suggested that he go to the department head which he did and explained the situation. In one class, I think that they just adjusted the grades upwards and in the other, there was more direct oversight of the TA after the class was about half over.</p>
<p>Anyone can complain about anything. Whether or not it is useful for the student is another matter.</p>
<p>This thread was specifically started to ask about professors with accents. Unless you think that having an accent implies that you have poor English skills, that you don’t work hard and prepare enough for your classes or that you spend too much time working on research, I’m not sure what the relevance of those are.</p>
<p>And to go along with the gym analogy, I think professors with accents are like going to a gym with a different brand of treadmills, where the controls are not the same as the treadmills you are used to.</p>
<p>Whether or not an accent is an impediment to effective teaching will depend upon how extreme the accent is. I have a yoga instructor who says “ties” for “thighs” and that is no big deal, everyone can figure that one out. The problem arises when the accent is so heavy that students cannot figure out what the prof is saying. When this happens, which is probably not all that frequent, there isn’t much point in going to class at all, I imagine.</p>
<p>Using the gym analogy, profs with heavy accents are like machines at the gym that include no posted instructions and are impossible to figure out how to use.</p>
<p>OMG- xiggi, I agree with you! There have to be more cost-effective ways to learn to learn from ineffective, low functioning, frustrating people than going to college. My son learned how to learn in his K-12 public school system.</p>
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I had a professor in law school once who had a completely clear voice, no problem. The problem was that he read his lectures from a a binder. There was no explanation, no discussion, no questions, nothing. Just him reading to us something he could have just provided us to read. I didn’t complain about him, either, but that course was a rip-off. Again, if you paid to go to a concert, and couldn’t hear the music, you wouldn’t consider that a character-building experience–you’d demand a refund.</p>
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<p>There are some free on-line textbooks as well:</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1289172-big-savings-u-s-students-open-source-book-program.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1289172-big-savings-u-s-students-open-source-book-program.html</a></p>
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<p>It does seem that a large percentage of students are getting just that out of college attendance, as the classroom population is often noticeably smaller on most days compared to days when there are tests.</p>
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<p>But wouldn’t it be possible for gym instructors to be of either type regardless of accent? The same can apply to faculty and graduate student instructors at colleges. It is not (or should not) be about the accent…</p>
<p>Also, whether the college instructors make the class difficult is also somewhat independent of the quality of their teaching. Indeed, the best instructors can teach more difficult material because they teach effectively.</p>
<p>Perhaps the way to reduce the chance of encountering instructors with unfamiliar accents is to attend the local community college, who are likely to have a lot of adjunct faculty hired from the local population with the same accent as the student who has grown up in the area. Among four year schools, the lowest chance of unfamiliar accents would likely be found at a local university, so that faculty who have been there for a while may have their accents moderated by the local accent, and adjuncts would be hired from the local population with the local accent.</p>
<p>But that seems to be at odds with many students’ wish to “go away” for college, as well as aiming for “top” schools that draw students and faculty from all over the country and world.</p>
<p>Another option might be for a student to look closely at honors colleges. Honors colleges (and programs for selected top students at elites) tend to see that professors teaching their best students, even in intro classes, can speak intelligible English and set up their courses to maximize student learning. </p>
<p>If too many students complain about a particular professor, even for having English that is not at a level sufficient to explain the course material, it is my understanding that the professor will no longer be invited to teach in honors classes. Increasing numbers of very smart students from our area who are interested in meeting students from around the country and world, while taking advantage of rigorous coursework and research opportunities in STEM, are choosing this option, which, combined with merit aid, can make it cheaper than our local community college.</p>
<p>Maybe it would be a good idea for the research universities to stop pretending that most of their undergraduates would be there for higher learning. Mostly they are there to get a diploma. Just hire some high school teachers to teach the material in the style that is familiar to students and in the end give them their diplomas. Undergraduate academics are not that challenging anywhere. Yes, they may be challenging for the kids who are learning them but then again, so are third grade math for the third-graders. You really don’t to be a top scientist to teach that stuff. So why even bother the research scientist who are usually selected to their jobs for totally different skill-sets than what is relevant in being a good teacher? Few of those people will of course have a natural talent in teaching, few more can easily learn enough pedagogic skills to handle the kids in class, but many will not be good teachers anyway.</p>
<p>I am very wary about schools that have a lot of grad students doing the recitations and who have a lot of bad reviews as compared to peer schools. It is a factor that I believe should go into the consideration of a school and in picking a school. My son took a school out of consideration because he did not like the composition of the classes and the students and felt like the entire atmosphere was just to competitive and intense for him. I didn’t like that criteria, and felt that he did not give enough of a go to come to that conclusion, but if someone is particularly concerned about that sort of issue, it is something that should be investigated and addressed.</p>
<p>My one son took Micro/Macro in a lecture hall with 300+ students with double that for exams when the two sections come together or other combined sessions. He does have recitation in a small group once a week. My other son at a LAC took the course with 18 students and the professor very much involved and concerned with each student. That is a difference one can find between a university and a LAC. My son at the public university is taking a typical slate of freshman courses and most of his courses are in lecture halls like that. Supposedly the situation changes once he is out of those intro courses.</p>
<p>cptofthehouse - Sometimes it is not even grad students leading recitations or offering “help”- it is other undergrads who did well in the course! That was a real shocker to me. I really do wish that instead of lots and lots of “help” options, schools maintained better quality control over intro classes.</p>
<p>But, knowing what I know now, I would have pushed for frazzled kids to get as much background in intro math and science while still in high school as would have been feasible, accelerating in math over summers and then repeating material in intro or honors classes. </p>
<p>I would have also had them learn how to self-study, in anticipation of large lectures or other classes with ineffective professors, perhaps by taking an online course. Students can learn how to seek out explanations in other texts or even decide if and when they would need a tutor, for example.</p>
<p>It was our experience that instruction in intro classes can be very spotty, and prior familiarity with much of the material and ways of getting around poor or nearly non-existent instruction can be extremely valuable.</p>
<p>Once out of the intro classes, most students can pick and choose electives and avoid professors whose style they do not find compatible. Or, they might find that the professor they would have avoided for an intro lecture class might prove to be a great teacher in upper-level seminar or lab classes.</p>
<p>I do not think it is out of line to ask ahead of time whether professors teaching large lectures are fluent or intelligible in English, at an American university, especially as poor speakers are never (so far as I am aware) provided with interpreters.</p>
<p>But, especially for STEM courses or courses in other areas (economics, etc.) it might be helpful to ask ahead of time - </p>
<p>What is the attrition rate for these classes? What is the attrition rate for these majors?</p>
<p>How many students are repeating the material, because they have seen it before in high school or are re-taking the class after a W (withdrawal) or failing grade?</p>
<p>What resources are available, and how difficult is it to access these resources? We have seen a wide range of resources, from “peer tutors” to staff with graduate degrees hired to tutor students needing help in intro classes.</p>
<p>Do students perceive grading as fair?</p>
<p>What is the typical course format? Are exams in-class multiple choice exams, a combination of short answer and multiple choice, a few problems that few get entirely correct, but with partial credit awarded, open book exams, or take home exams (more typical of upper-level exams)? Is homework assigned and promptly graded? Is it graded individually? (Frazzled kids have mentioned learning quite a bit from good graders.)</p>
<p>Are there any school-wide initiatives to keep students from dropping out of engineering or science majors? Are “average” students (and keep in mind that at some schools, a student with math SAT between 750 and 800 will be an “average” student) overlooked while superstars get the lion’s share of attention? (Important to know if your student will be an “average” student.)</p>
<p>Do professors lecture from their powerpoints only, or do they actively engage with students?</p>
<p>By mid-semester, is a significant portion of the class (including students doing well on exams) not bothering to attend lecture anymore?</p>
<p>I do not really know how to find out, but in some classes, are large numbers of students getting by or setting an unrealistically high curve because they are cheating?</p>
<p>Students might be embarrassed about asking these questions, so sometimes parents will need to do the digging. Every school will have its advantages and disadvantages and it seems to me it is better to know about these beforehand rather than drink the kool-aid and believe that if a student is having trouble, it is because they are partying too much or not studying enough. (Sometimes I think students turn to partying when they are frustrated as efforts to engage in classes are not paying off…)</p>
<p>Yep. My son runs the tutoring section for Econ at his school and has for two years. No grad students at his school. It all depends on how it works. That’s why those rating systems are so valuable. Yes, they can be manipulated and be shams, but they are a piece of info to keep in mind. It all depends on how whether the system at a given school is successful or not.</p>
<p>If you can get your high schooler, never mind a group of high schoolers to do more in high school, package it and you have a winner. I’ve been struggling with those very goals for over 20 years and have to throw my hands up in the air after a certain point.</p>
<p>There are a number of schools that get their students through killer courses and those students often have low test scores and grades, without the aptitudes that a lot of kids who are failing these courses have. I have seen this with my own eyes. We visited SUNY Maritime, for example, and get a load of those test scores and what courses those kids complete and what kind of jobs and salaries they command when they graduate. Yes, it’s doable.</p>
<p>In the early ‘80s I took a job at a hospital, which had over 60% of their RN staff from Taiwan. Having trained and worked w/ a number of Pilipino nurses I naively failed to anticipate the communication problems w/ the nurses from Taiwan. I soon learned that unlike in the Philippines where children learn English very early, that is/was not the case for the Taiwanese nurses. </p>
<p>Every and I mean EVERY day I would develop a headache around 1pm or 2pm that would not resolve until late into the evening. I had to stop driving to work because I couldn’t concentrate to safely drive home.</p>
<p>In normal conversation you don’t need to listen to or hear every word in order to understand what is being said and determine the information being given. But …. when the speaker’s English is almost unintelligible the listener is required to concentrate on every word and sometimes every syllable of every word, while observing the speaker’s facial expressions and body language. </p>
<p>I quit that job after 3 months and in the 30+ years since, I have had maybe a half dozen headaches.</p>
<p>In my experience, after four or five lectures of listening to a professor with a thick accent, I got used to it and it wasn’t a big deal.</p>
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In my experience, this was absolutely not the case.
Who would you ask?</p>
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<p>Meaning you had to spend 1/2 to 1/3 of a course to get … used to it. How about the other students who might not have a fine ear for accents? And how about students going to this professor for assistance. Although the chance that a lecturing professor actualy keeps office hours, that would be quite a deterrent. </p>
<p>Bottom line is that thick accents and glorified peer teaching IS a big deal. And not a good deal at all. Tenured professors devoted to research, living the publish or perish “dream”, armies of inexperienced TA’s “putting up” with the necessary evil of having to teach, thick accents and lack of adequate training, and other practices that limit the presence of full professors should NOT come at the expense of undergraduates.</p>
<p>Let’s make a analogy. Although it is hard to imagine an even worse high school teaching system, could we phantom a system where seniors teach freshman, grade their papers, and stamp their own views on the curriculum? How happy would we be for visiting foreign students to also teach “sections” and grade the papers and exams? Would parents accept high schoolers to be teaching classes in middle school? That should be a sound no as answer!</p>
<p>Yet we seem to accept such situations in our universities. Go figure!</p>