How do you know if your child would be competitive at top schools?

Parents Forum
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@jonri: GCSE’s are at a level below A-levels. I’ve heard them described on CC as equivalent to 11th grade honors classes.
A-levels are equivalent to AP’s or freshmen college classes (though typically more in depth, so more like year-long college classes) and English kids typically take only 3-4 of them over 2 years before uni.

But in any case, the top English Unis care mostly about A-levels in relevant subjects, just like they’d care almost solely about AP scores in relevant subjects for Americans and not about HS GPA or breadth. Even the best GCSE results would likely not make you competitive for the top English Unis without strong A-levels.

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Since Cornell was on your list of possible applications
https://admissions.cornell.edu/sites/admissions.cornell.edu/files/2016%20Freshman%20Requirements.pdf

Each college within Cornell has it’s own admission requirements, but note MOST of them require a foreign lang. Just one of those things you have to put up with… With his ACT he’ll get his essays and recommendations to be read at all the elite schools, but the foreign lang could be an issue. I have to agree with your son, my son and my kids did not like taking foreign lang classes, but just just continue with Spanish, do your best and don’t worry about the GPA. These schools look at the transcript. If he applies for math/science/engineering etc, they would downplay the foreign language grade, but may still require it be on the transcript. OTOH, if you apply to Arts & Science, or any college that requires COLLEGE LEVEL foreign language to graduate, the Spanish grades would matter. Think about colleges without the foreign language require at the college level, since if HS Spanish is tough, imagine college Spanish ?

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@theloniusmonk - I have to disagree with your ranking of what top colleges want. Students with a hook (Recruited athletes, URM and first generation) are definitely given some preference. Legacy status doesn’t always matter anymore, and some top schools only consider it if the student applies ED. And singular talent in music/art? Nice to have, but not something schools are looking for and prioritize.

My list would be:
Having a hook
Standing out in something
Good essays/compelling story/Ecs (the “holistic” part of admissions for top schools)
Top Grades and test scores combined with taking the most rigorous course load available.

Getting back to the OP: My D got into a school with single digit admissions. There was a note from her AO about how he liked her commitment and passion for one particular area. Compared to her classmates, her schedule was very light on “academic rigor” but sometimes that’s what you need to do to pursue a particular interest. We knew this was going to be a potential issue and addressed it in her application. (note that she did meet the requirements for “college ready” curriculum, just not with a bunch of APs) I think your son should understand the potential downfalls of taking the classes he is taking, and if he continues on this path, just be prepared to address his choices in his application.

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Regarding singular talent in music/art: The elites with music schools that aim to send grads in to Big 5 orchestras definitely care about music chops.
Certainly, others may not so much.

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@SuburbMom - I think we generally agree on the priorities, my point was that if you don’t have a hook, your chance of getting in are not the published figures, they’re much lower. Stanford e.g. has 2000 admits, of those 18% are first generation, and they have like 35 sports teams, you would need to figure another 200 athletes, then URMs that are not first generation, and international students, so I would estimate that brings the class down by half to a 1000 and the remaining 1000 for the 40,000 or so applicants, so really 2.5%.

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@PurpleTitan Thanks for the correction. I googled. Emma Watson did have 3 As on A levels in art, English literature and geography. (Geography is a more serious subject in the UK. It’s a course of study at Oxbridge.)

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@jonri: Geography is taken seriously in the US as well. Just because our elites don’t tend to offer undergrad majors in it doesn’t mean it isn’t taken seriously.

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Glad to hear it. Someone in my family has an Oxbridge degree in geography and it seems as if every American who finds that out assumes it’s some super easy course of study.

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It’s important to keep in mind that a “hook” is whatever offers added value to a particular college or university. The term is often used to describe broad, common categories - legacy, athlete, URM – but it also can mean different and very particularized things to particular colleges. For example, to any school with significant gender imbalance, being a member of the underrepresented gender is a hook.

When my daughter was applying to college, Bard was very actively recruiting STEM majors. They had invested money in a new science science center (which opened about 10 years ago) - an it was very obvious that they hoped to bring in plenty of STEM-oriented students to fill it. So at the time, a STEM orientation was a hook for Bard – and it still is for many LAC’s with more of an artsy reputation – but obviously not a “hook” for applicants to schools like Johns Hopkins or CMU which have very strong established reputations in the sciences.

It can be hard to figure out a “hook” for a well-rounded student who has good grades and test scores, but lacks an unusual passion or interest that stands out from other applicants. I’d assume that statistically, the majority of college applicants probably fit in that category - after all, they are high school students who most likely have simply done the things high school students are expected to do, and done it well – taken the recommended course load, including a full complement of AP’s; scoring well on standardized tests; participating in the sort of ECs and/or athletics that high schools typically offer.

But the student with the lopsided profile - like my D. or the OP’s son – offers more potential for college admission, because it is easier to figure out what their strengths are. Essentially, the goal in a college application is marketing: the candidate is making a sales pitch to a college focusing on key strengths. But to do that successfully, one need to identify the target market, which can mean going against type for that college.

The OP’s son can try to re-invent himself to fit whatever he thinks elite colleges want - which is likely to be wrong in any case, as the first impulse and the one that seems uniformly recommended is to make the applicant look more like everyone else.

Or the OP’s son can stop worrying about what brand name colleges want from him, but instead figure out what he wants for himself and what he has to offer, and then do the detective work to figure out which colleges really want what he has to offer. I think he will be happier in the long run going with the latter approach. His grades and test score are strong enough to pretty much guarantee admission to well-regarded college – it is just the top-ranked prestige schools that remain elusive.

That doesn’t mean that he completely gives up on the goal of trying to strengthen his appeal to colleges by filling in gaps. If it fits into his schedule, another year of Spanish is worth pursuing. The main point I am making is that I think it would be a mistake for him to give up on the things he really cares about – band and the science research program – because of information his mom picks up on CC about his “chances.”

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My son never felt he was particularly good at foreign languages, but stuck it out through 4 years of Spanish starting in 8th grade. Several A- grades that were quite close to a B+.

(Note: For someone starting languages from scratch, I’d say French is actually the most useful language for scientists, because France can be finicky about using it’s own language at conferences, whereas most other European countries use English as a 2nd language at conferences and Asian countries provide English translation.)

He has what looks like 2.5 years of social studies on his transcript, though colleges in California count the semester-long community college class in World History as 2 high school semesters. So 2.5 to 3.0 years with APUSH, AP Gov’t, and AP Macroecon plus the college class. So, that’s a little light on social studies, but it is fairly normal for California public schools to offer only 3 years of social studies.

But, he is “pointy” with math through multivariable and linear algebra (college, not at the high school), 3 college CS theory classes, and all 3 of AP Physics, Chem, and Bio along with college Geology. Also physics research, high school engineering classes, selective summer STEM program, and some national CS-related awards.

Anyway, he ended up with admits at “pointy” colleges (Caltech and CMU SCS). So, pointy can work, but note that he got waitlisted at a couple Ivies, UChicago, and Stanford, and lack of humanities achievements might have been part of that (but who knows).

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As the UChicago admissions counselor has said before there are no hard prerequisites for applying to UChicago. That’s in the UChicago thread under “UChicago Questions? Ask an admissions counselor!”

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@jonri: Oh right. Well there is a difference between what lay people think and what those in the know think.
For example, many people seem to think that philosophy majors just spend their time BSing while those in the know understand that good (analytic) philosophy programs produce incisive thinkers and problem solvers.

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Selective colleges are choosing a class and it is all about how the applicant contributes to the mix. I think of it as a cupcake (the usual suspects to be admitted), some frosting (URM, legacy) and sprinkles (unusual talents).

One of my kids had a full schedule due to interest in music, and took a science online. This can easily be done with foreign language: just make sure the high school accepts it. Virtual High School or Aventa Learning are possibilities. It is also possible to homeschool one or two classes. SAT’s and even CLEP’s can evaluate.

It is very possible for a kid with specialized talents to get into schools with a transcript that lacks a few requirements, just don’t know if this son meets that standard- not enough info. Regardless, I think he should make sure to follow his interests and let the chips fall where they may.

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Like Ynottogo, my son was accepted at pointy schools, even tho he was a winner of a national writing competition. He disliked Spanish after several years. His solution was to study Latin 1 on his own, and enroll in Latin 2 at the local U. He did have 3 years of social sciences.

To the OP, it will be interesting to follow your sons journey.

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I think OP’s son sounds like a wonderful, talented kid who will probably do very well for himself. Whether or not he also manages to get himself admitted to a super-reachy, single-digit admit, prestige school doesn’t really matter – and I think that kids sell themselves short early on when they focus on those school, instead of focusing on simply making the best of their high school years. With the OP’s son’s stats he might also be looking at very serious merit aid from schools that aren’t even on their radar.

I don’t think OP has told us exactly what her son’s research interests are - those could really change the shape of his college search. As a high schooler, I was attracted to a particular OOS public U. in part because of the presence of some well-known researchers at the school. Once you get seriously interested in a particular research topic, you very quickly learn the names of the luminaries in the field and the opportunity of studying with them, or within the departments that they anchor, may become much more of an enticement than the US News rank list. (In my case, my interests had shifted by the time I went to college, but I did have the opportunity to attend a lecture given by one of the researchers I had idolized - he was quite elderly, and was an emeritus – but the lecture was astounding and just one more piece of confirmation that I had chosen the right school.)

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I am surprised at many of the responses.

Many people prattle on and on about the virtues of a well-rounded liberal arts education at the college level and bemoan its replacement by an outcome oriented, pre-professional, consumer-driven undergraduate curriculum. Many people lambasted the governor who wanted to offer a stripped down $10,000 college education that focused on job relevant skills.

But if many people feel that way about the undergraduate curriculum, then how about some consistency when it comes to high school education? Students should be receiving a well-rounded education to prepare them to be educated citizens and intelligent adults. Bright high school students should be taking many different subjects in order to lay a solid life-long foundation and to discover new interests.

I understand why this sophomore boy wants to heavily focus on subjects he really likes. What I don’t understand is why most posters here aren’t encouraging him to slow down a tiny bit and not short-change himself when it comes to non-STEM subjects. I suppose that I feel that it is my job as a parent to help guide my kids’ high school education - this includes getting a rigorous, well-rounded education as well as diving deeply into their passions.

Of course, I understand that this student isn’t completely neglecting the non-STEM subjects. But he is clearly bright, and I think he is short-changing himself relative to his abilities more than I would prefer for my own kids. I suspect some colleges might possibly feel this way too.

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Last I checked, band wasn’t STEM.

And I don’t get why parents are so intent on producing kids who all fit into the same neat little boxes.

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Right now he’s interested in biotechnology, biochemistry, biophysics, bioengineering - but he realizes that the most specialized of this research would wait until graduate school. So he’s looking at programs that have a biochemistry major, which is a long list, as well as some, like Carnegie Mellon and U Chicago, that have the bioengineering part, too. He is also thinking about a music minor or even a dual major with music. Both of these schools would accommodate that, as would U of Rochester (though I don’t know how much overlap Eastman school of music has with the University), and likely many others. He desires a school where he would have the opportunity to work in a professor’s lab early on, and not have to compete with tons of graduate students. Harvey Mudd requires everyone to do research all through college, which sounds awesome. He could get more of the humanities/arts at the neighboring colleges associated with it. Getting in is difficult, of course. He also likes the sound of Reed, as it is very intellectual, the professors show interest in the students, a huge percentage of graduates go on to graduate school, and he would get both the sciences and the liberal arts… So many factors to think about. He is a well rounded kid who has social skills and a sharp intellect. He listens to college level philosophy lectures for fun, reads voraciously (he’s reading Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance right now), and really wants to find a place where he can have meaningful conversations with lots of thoughtful peers from all kinds of disciplines preferably in a location of natural beauty where he can mountain bike, kayak, and cross country ski. (sounds like heaven to me, too). Luckily he has plenty of time to hone his choices, visit schools, and assess his priorities. He’s figured out his schedule, including summer courses, so that he will have 3 years of a language as well as 3 years of history/social studies by the time he graduates from high school. He really won’t budge on his math and science heavy schedule for his junior year, though. I know lots of folks are cautioning against that, saying that it doesn’t look rigorous enough, but come on, there’s a reason most kids don’t double up on AP math and science classes, right? However this turns out for him, it will definitely be an adventure.

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I also have a son who is passionate about music and science. He was interested in very selective schools. The advice we received, for what it’s worth, is that at the most selective schools the transcript is the most important part of the application, and they expect to see all core subjects at a high level.

So my science kid took AP US History and AP Spanish, for example, along with band, AP music theory, AP Calc BC and AP science classes. He also just likes to learn about a wide range, so this wasn’t a " do it for college" thing. His goal is to be a science researcher also. He was a bit worried actually because he had not done any outside research in HS but he was accepted to 12/14 schools including 3 in the top ten.

The research class your son has available sounds like an awesome opportunity. I would agree with some others though about his other electives. He should stick with a foreign language and ss over electives like computer science or doubling the lab science in a single year. Can he manage the science research class and still take at least 4 core subjects? If there really isn’t room for the 5th, then maybe a summer class makes sense. And as far as “pointy” kids goes, again we were advised that this doesn’t refer to their curriculum but more to their ECs. So top colleges no longer need the kids to be in 12 different clubs, etc. Having focused interests is a good thing. Good luck to him!

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??? Neither is lacrosse, but I don’t think I’d be very sympathetic if my son tried to convince me that being captain of the lax team is a substitute for taking English or History.

Band, sports, and PE are activities, not academic subjects.