How do you know if you're "good enough"

College Majors Music Major
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<p>My piano-playing sophomore ds is contemplating music performance as a major in college. He is still undecided about what he wants to study, but it is something he is considering. </p>

<p>When looking at audition requirements for most schools, he is currently playing the level of repertoire that is requested. But what does that really mean? If he plays a middle-of-the road Mozart sonata and plays it well, isn't he going to be trumped by someone who plays a more difficult sonata well??? </p>

<p>On other forums there are discussions of safety (I know this doesn't really exist in music), match, reach, etc. Categorizing as such is fairly straight-forward simply by looking at admission stats - middle range GPAs, standardized test scores, etc. You can compare your stats to the common data set and pretty much ascertain what your chances are. But is there any way to do this for schools of music (whether stand-alone conservatory or within a regular university)? There are SO many good pianists out there! How can one truly know if you're going to stack up? I would hate for ds to go through the cost/time/angst of several auditions only to find out in the end he isn't good enough to get in anywhere.</p>

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<p>I think the hardest thing for the parent of a musical student is to figure out how that student compares to other musical students. </p>

<p>Pretty much you just make your best guess and hope things work out for the best. My son was a late comer to his primary instrument, so we didn’t have huge expectations. He threatened to auditon for some top conservatories, I told him that he was welcome to do that but that he had to take care of it, I didn’t really have the expectation that he would be accepted at any top programs. He didn’t “take care of it” so I can only assume that he didn’t think he would be accepted either.</p>

<p>What we have to remember as parents is that while our kid might be the best one in his high school band program, or the best student of his private teacher, or he might make AllState or Region band, but on the bigger scale of things, those accomplishments might not really mean that much.</p>

<p>We also have to remember that at this point, just because our student may not play every song flawlessly, doesn’t mean that he/she isn’t as good as the competition, because in most cases, they arn’t quite perfect yet either - if they were, they wouldn’t have a need to go to music school.</p>

<p>I know that a lot of people here will claim that there is no such thing as a safety, and to the extent that anyone can screw up an audition, thats true. But we did select one college that we felt was a total safety, academically and musically, and my son ended getting his second largest scholarship offer from that college. We knew that it would be a good bet as a safety because that college had only been accredited for a couple of years and we knew that they are hungry for students.</p>

<p>His “reach” college was more of a reach for academics than it was music, but with a very small music department, it can become a little to to be admitted musically also.</p>

<p>As long as you pick out one safety (I mean a school that is going to really be a safety) and a couple of colleges that you feel are good matches, then most likely your student will be accepted somewhere. I think that the worst case might be what happened to one student that my son knows, he froze up in the audition and flunked it. So he wasn’t accepted as a BM student. He enrolled as a BA Music student, is pretty much taking all the same classes as BM students, and he auditioned again in Feb (don’t know if he made it this time).</p>

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<p>That is one of the toughest questions to answer when it comes to music, and unfortunately Piano is at the top of the competitiveness pyramid (all music is extremely competitive, but there are those that are hyper competitive…). There are no real objective measurements, I have heard people talk about for example how the student one some competition and that means they are up there, but that in turn depends on the competition (pianist my son worked with just won a competition out in the midwest, but the level wasn’t particularly high…).</p>

<p>It is good your son is playing repertoire that matches requirements for audition at that early a stage, it is to his benefit. However, as you also note, that may or may not mean he is playing it at a level required on auditions or be ‘up there’, though it certainly would put him ahead of those not at that level yet. I can also tell you that questioning whether someone is good enough comes with the territory, I hear that from kids who seem already to have achieved so much, kids who have soloed with major orchestras, etc, so it comes with the territory.</p>

<p>One of the biggest pieces of advice might be to seek out a high level teacher, preferably someone teaching at a decent level college program, and have them assess your S’s skills. I don’t know who your son’s teacher is but one thing with music teachers is they may very well be good teachers but not necessarily be into the pulse of what is happening out there, a teacher at a music school of any kind of decent level does auditions so they know what the level is out there, what is expected, and they can give feedback. Especially if teachers are older IME, those who went through music school 20 or 30 years ago, they may not realize what the level is to gain admissions to decent level music programs. With an assessment from someone in one of those programs you are likely to get an idea of where the kid stands and make decisions from there.</p>

<p>It is why I agree with a piece of wisdom passed onto my son by an ex-musician, he said that if you could possibly see yourself doing anything but music, you may want to do that, but if music seems to be your passion, you wake up each morning and anticipate doing music that day, etc, then you may want to pursue it. The logic behind that (mine, anyway) is that to go into music is very scary, it takes both a healthy dose of realistic assessment and the willingness to ignore what is ‘obvious’ to others, a thick skin and a determination to go ahead, even knowing how tough it is going to be to achieve that dream. The positive side is unlike what most people seem to think, if the kid decides to pursue music and then decides it isn’t for him, it isn’t the end of the world, it isn’t like they will be faced with having a music degree and ‘not being able to do anything with it’, the world is full of ex music students who go on to do other things, some founders of major companies were once music majors, music majors end up becoming doctors, lawyers and so forth, and IT is full of ex music types:). Doing music isn’t jumping off a tall building without a net, it is a discipline that take it from someone who hires people as part of my job, looks as good on a resume as many other degrees do:). </p>

<p>Hopefully this helped!</p>

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<p>“One of the biggest pieces of advice might be to seek out a high level teacher, preferably someone teaching at a decent level college program, and have them assess your S’s skills.”</p>

<p>Great piece of advice here. When my son was a sophmore, he played for a college professor. The lesson was arranged by his teacher. The professor helped us to understand how talented our son was and was a resource later on when he was applying to schools and looking for teachers. This professor even wrote a letter of recommendation for my son when the time came.</p>

<p>We are very fortunate to live in a community where the local classical musicians are very supportive of the youngsters. However, I know that this is not always the case. Check with your son’s teacher and see what that person thinks of the idea.</p>

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<p>You could also have him attend a summer music camp at a local college that way he can see IF he likes spending all day immersed in music. Even the non-audition ones will have faculty available for lessons and you can start getting feedback from them. He went to a workshop that had profs from all over who provided invaluable advice on improving his audition repertoire. Son went to both audition and non audition camps and found that yes he did have the right stuff and yes he would like to study music all day everyday.</p>

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<p>The best way to see how competitive your son will be at a particular college would be for him to have a lesson with one of the instructors at that college. It is not too early to arrange such a lesson. The question about your son’s potential competitiveness at the college should be asked near the end of the lesson. While the instructor can never give any guarantees, they can give you an idea. One of the best ways to ask such a question if you don’t like the direct approach (“Am I in the ballpark for admission to your college?”) would be to ask, “What types of schools of music would be appropriate for me?” If they mention schools well above their own or well below their own, then you have a good idea. Of course, your son’s skills will develop further prior to his audition, so you must be certain that the instructor knows that you son has x years until he enters college.</p>

<p>I would aim to get a couple of trial lessons from teachers at colleges that are at the top (in terms of competitiveness) of your son’s potential list. If you can find such teachers at possible summer programs, then you kill two birds with one stone. Otherwise, incorporate the lessons with a college visit. </p>

<p>Teachers at the local college may not have a good idea as to the competitiveness of various colleges around the country (unless your local college is CIM, NEC, Juilliard, Rice or like ilk). There really is a vast difference between the good, the very good, the excellent, and the Curtis-bound with respect to piano. At the top level, pianists need not just excellent playing, but excellent playing of very difficult and substantial repertoire.</p>

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<p>imagep, I think the “there are no safeties in music” is the safer philosophy to follow. One of the only programs my son was not admitted to was his only true “safety,” a local state school’s jazz program that we made him audition for. (He was admitted academically, but not musically - who knows, maybe they only had room for one guitarist. Maybe his lack of enthusiasm showed, but I doubt that – he’s far too proud to purposely play badly.) </p>

<p>Yet he was admitted to many far more “selective” music programs. </p>

<p>So you really do never know.</p>

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<p>Obviously, a top college would be better but sometimes if you just want to try out the atmosphere and it is probably too late for the competitive music camps don’t disparage the local schools. Our local music schools do have grads with phd’s from Eastman, Juilliard, Frost, etc. Plus you can also try a private lesson with principals from the big orchestras when they are in town for the summer. At son’s music ed school, 20 plus kids went to the same music camps and many of his friends did go on to the big time top name schools: Eastman, Juilliard, CIM, etc… So if you are a sophomore trying to get your act together for the summer the local schools can be a good starting place and you can network on up from there.</p>

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<p>Competitive audition based summer programs. Apply to several and send him if you can. Enter local and national competitions .
Also if he can take lessons at a university or conservatory precollege program and participate in adjudicated recitals. </p>

<p>Sent from my ADR6300 using CC</p>

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<p>Thank you for all the replies. I think we are at least on the right track. His school of music is affiliated with the local university. He did a trial lesson at a different university during a campus visit this spring, and he is attending an auditioned-based piano academy this summer. He participates in an adjudicated Sonata Festival in the fall, and he is about to participate in our region’s state music teacher’s association festival in a couple of weeks. If he has success there, he will continue on to the state level competition. I appreciate knowing that, at least for now, we seem to be jumping through the proper hoops. These forums are a wealth of information.</p>

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<p>jazz/shreddermom, we are probably looking at “safety” options and defining the term a little differently.</p>

<p>I know that people say that there is no safety for audition music programs, but there are schools that will accept anyone who can pay the $$$. That is most definately as close to a safety as one can get. I’m not even suggesting that everyone should pick one of those schools as a safety, but they do exist. As a matter of fact, most of those schools accept students on a rolling basis right up to the day school starts, so if an applicant was rejected at every other school, they could still get in at this type of safety long after the rejection letters have been opened.</p>

<p>I think it’s just a matter of picking a school that would be an appropriate safety, and that could be different for every student. </p>

<p>While my son and I were waiting for his audition time at his safety, I overhead a college student asking another one what we are doing, the student explained that it was audition day, the first student said “you mean you have to audition to go here?”. the second student told the first that he probably didn’t have to audition because his relative was a music professor at the college.</p>

<p>I also overhead one of the music professors talking to the admissions office trying to get a student accepted, he was saying “I understand that his academics are weak but he has a lot of tallent”.</p>

<p>I have the feeling that that college would accept anyone into their music program. And it’s a medium size (~7,000 students) large state university that attracts students from all over the country (particularly the northeast).</p>

<p>There’s a small private college with an accredited music school about a half hour from my house. I am pretty sure that they well accept anyone who can afford to go and as long as they have a high school diploma or GED. </p>

<p>While I can’t dispute that some students may get rejected even from their safety college, I do believe that there is such a thing as a safety, it just might be a little different for different people. Picking a safety is a matter of picking the right safety.</p>

<p>By the way, at my son’s safety, they offered him double the maximum scholarship amount that they have listed on their website. I made my son contact that college to tell them that he had selected a different one. It was the only college that he felt awkward about turning down because that college made it well know that they really (like really really - almost to the point of feeling like he was being recruited for athletics) wanted him.</p>

<p>I think it all comes down to the question that the OP was asking about. How do you evaluate your musical student? In my son’s situation we just looked at the overall situation and made some logical guesses. Since he was a latecomer to his primary instrument we knew that it was unlikely that he would be accepted at any top top programs. But at the same time he was the best at his instrument at his high school, and apparently one of the best in the state since he made allstate. So we knew that he could likely get in at at least the “average” level program and possibly a little better than average. We ended up selecting one college that we felt was a reach, one that was just a very slight reach (for academic reasons), one that was a good match identically and musically, and one that was just a little lower than what I felt his level was (musically and academically). It worked out, he was accepted at all four colleges and was offered a scholarship at all four. </p>

<p>My biggest regret is that we didn’t add another reach college or two, maybe not more of a reach academically, but musically.</p>

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<p>I think it dawned on me when my son was a sophmore in HS that classical trombone was not going to be his path. He auditioned that spring for the local youth symphony (sponsored by our professional city orchestra) and didn’t make the top tier, so that was a sign. Plus he didn’t have the passion for playing his classical pieces, compared to jazz, so I didn’t see how his classical playing would have a chance to improve. He did make All-state in jazz as a junior and senior, plus a couple regional honors jazz bands so I had a pretty good idea that he could get into college as a jazz studies major. What made it difficult at college audition time is most schools still required a classical audition to get in as well as the jazz audition (at least for trombone). We sweated bullets on that part, not knowing if son would be held up to classical trombone performance standards!
What has been nice this year as a freshman at UNT is son’s classical liking in trombone has been re-kindled, which is great, I think it will make him sound better in jazz, as well as make him a better all-around trombone player, hopefully leading to more gigs as a professional musician.</p>

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<p>I agree with imagep that are plenty of “safety” music schools, if you have the money to pay for them.</p>

<p>My daughter’s sax teacher teaches at our local Large Public University. He tells her that all a student has to do is be able to “spell the word saxophone” in order to be admitted. I am quite sure that if she skipped the audition this fall and applied at the last minute that she would be accepted.</p>

<p>However, going back to the original poster’s question, how do you know if you are good enough, I would not recommend that most instrumentalists major in music performance at this university. While the saxophone department has a strong record of placing students, the department as a whole is quite weak. If a student (say, a violinist or a flutist) were to ask me if they were good enough to “make it” and they only got accepted by our Large Public University, I would advise them no, and recommend they go into another field.</p>

<p>Piano, however, may be different, if your son would consider piano accompaniment as a profession. We live in a large city, and there is always a shortage of good accompanists–the only instrument shortage that I can think of.</p>

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<p>@woodwinds- the top conservatories with Collaborative Piano departments offer it as a graduate degree. The students are admitted with undergrad degrees in Piano Performance. Someone with that grad degree has a lot of opportunities open to them, not only the obvious, but some go on to further specialization as vocal coaches.</p>

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<p>One thought about ‘safeties’. Yes, there are music programs out there that are either non auditioned or where the audition is pretty much a formality, but I don’t think that is what people mean when they talk of safeties. Those kind of schools kind of remind me of the old joke about him not wanting to belong to a club that would have him as a member. </p>

<p>My take on that is why would someone want to go to such a program? There have been endless debates on making it in music, about choosing between an expensive, big name school with big financial strain and a less prestigious program with $$$, and rightfully so, and most people seem to think from what I gather it is better off not to financially extend yourself assuming the program with the $$$ has a teacher good enough to drive the student. </p>

<p>However, the non audition programs or the ones where you can get in, as one poster put it, if you spell saxophone, what is the point of going there? Odds are, a program like that is not going to have great teachers (if they did, it would attract better students,and they would establish audition standards)…and what is the likelyhood of a student going to a program like that ‘making it’ in music, especially if you are talking classical music if they don’t feel they can meet the requirements of an auditioned program? </p>

<p>Obviously it depends on what the student sees themselves doing, but if they have any hopes of a high level career in classical performance, orchestral, solo, chamber, I seriously question if they can’t get into a decent level audition program what hope they have for actually making it in that form of music…someone potentially could go through such a program and put together a living as a local music teacher, doing local gigs and such, but if there dream is to get into a major orchestra or whatever, I would question whether they could go to a program like that and then even assuming going to grad school, getting into a strong grad program in music. For those jobs the level of competition is such that kids who can get into the ‘competitive’ programs often fail…</p>

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<p>Yes, most college decisions do come down to money so if the student can’t afford to attend the better school without big loans they probably shouldn’t attend since there are no guarantees for those grads either. If the kid loves music and gets a good offer from a lesser known school going without huge debt it is a good option. As other posters have mentioned getting into a top school without receiving a big scholarship or the family resources to pay $40-50000/ year, makes it painful to turn the offer down. The best advice is to attend the best school you can afford, work hard and network. Being saddled with debt is a financially bad advice and being a starving musician is hard any time and in this economy the new grads will be competing with seasoned professionals who’ve been downsized. Hopefully, if the student is good enough to be admitted to a top program, their safety won’t be a school where anyone who can spell saxophone is admitted. Plus as that poster mentioned the teacher for that school was good enough to be a private teacher for higher quality students on the outside so maybe a student of that teacher at the safety school can still make to a good grad program.</p>

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<p>musicprnt, the odds of “making it” in classical music are pretty bad whether you go to a top college or a no-name college. If you just are looking at the odds, students are wasting their time at either.</p>

<p>The odds or “making it” in pop music are pretty bad for college graduates also. Most successful pop stars don’t have music degrees.</p>

<p>So if all we want to consider is the “odds of making it in music”, then music students should all drop out now.</p>

<p>The most interesting man in the world says: “I don’t always talk to BM graduates, but when I do, I usually ask for a large fries”.</p>