How do you like Berkeley?

<p>
[quote]
I am quite convinced that there are probably poor Californians who would find Stanford to be cheaper than Berkeley is, once financial aid is factored in.

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</p>

<p>I've seen this argument more than once (e.g. every time you tell your Harvard story), and so I'm going to say this. At best, the financial aid packages that Stanford and Berkeley offer an applicant will be the same; rarely will Stanford's be better. It may appear that Stanford, and other privates, have better financial aid, but that's simply because privates are twice the price and thus have to work twice as hard in financial aid to be competitive with publics. This is more true for the top publics, though, since most publics won't cover all or near all of an applicant's financial need, so the private school doesn't have to work as hard to beat out its financial aid. But look at the figures:</p>

<p>Stanford -
Total cost of attendance: $49,448
Average need-based scholarship or grant award: $26,639
Average award as a percent of total cost: 54%
Average indebtedness at graduation: $15,758
Average need met: 100%</p>

<p>Berkeley
Total cost of attendance: $24070
Average need-based scholarship or grant award: $12,651
Average award as a percent of total cost: 53%
Average indebtedness at graduation: $14,751
Average need met: 92%</p>

<p>So Berkeley's financial aid seems just fine; the figures are virtually the same. As you can see, on average, Berkeley's students graduate with $1000 less in debt. Notice, also, that the total cost of attendance is for in-state; for out-of-state, I imagine that the average award as % of total cost would be much lower, which would explain why the overall average need met is brought down to 92% (otherwise it would probably be at or near 100%).</p>

<p>Sakky,</p>

<p>I'm glad you agree that "accommodation" is a function of expense, not selectivity. Oddly enough, you still seem caught up in the percentage of taxpayers Berkeley directly benefits, comparing it to a statement I made regarding the percentage of taxpaying graduate students in California. Of course, this comparison isn't entirely accurate. Remember, each public campus- whether it's UC, CSU, or Community College- only benefits a small percentage of California taxpayers, with Berkeley accommodating more taxpayers than any campus save UCLA. By contrast, the slim percentage of PhD candidates spans all the UC campuses and some CSU campuses with affiliated programs.</p>

<p>Allow me to explain further why "it's just plain naive to hold that richer students are simply more deserving of a private education." You aptly point out that "correlation does not mean causation," which is true, but meaningless in the context of need-blind admissions practices. The reason need-blind admissions exist, as I'm sure you would agree, is to encourage not only a diverse applicant pool, but a diverse student body. While each student must qualify for admission, egalitarian principles mandate different standards for people of different backgrounds. To your credit, this supports your theory regarding intelligence and wealth, but it fails to explain why UC Berkeley supports more low-income students than its peers. My theory is, the institution is to blame: private schools depend on private money and therefore must admit students who can pay the whole price over poorer but otherwise qualified applicants. (Even need-blind schools have no qualms admitting "special cases" such as legacies, donors, and children of the rich and famous, but at Berkeley, these factors are irrelevant.)</p>

<p>Having recently reread my latest post, I feel compelled to correct and/or clarify the seeming fallacies of logic in both paragraphs.</p>

<p>In it's first sentence, the entry defines "accommodation" as a function of affordability. However, later in the paragraph, it claims that Berkeley "accommodates" more taxpayers than most public schools as a function of size. Of course, I maintain that community colleges are more affordable than Berkeley. What I meant to say was Berkeley directly benefits a greater number of taxpayers than do most public schools, but that doesn't necessarily make it more affordable.</p>

<p>In the second paragraph, I assert that "UC Berkeley accepts more low-income students than its peers," implying that UC Berkeley is more accommodating as a function of its selectivity of certain groups, as opposed to the costs demanded of those groups. Surely, anyone who gets a full ride to a private elite, but not to Berkeley, should choose the former. Nevertheless, it should be clear that just because a handful of students benefit from full tuition scholarships and other generous grants doesn't necessarily make it the norm at private schools. It's better to compare what a student, on average, pays to attend Berkeley to what the average student at an elite private normally pays. After all, it's not like most college-bound taxpayers are poor enough to attend Stanford for free.</p>

<p>
[quote]
It's better to compare what a student, on average, pays to attend Berkeley to what the average student at an elite private normally pays.

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</p>

<p>Unless my logic is faulty, Berkeley students pay on average $6,838 (total cost of attendance minus the average financial aid package). Stanford students pay on average $19,360.</p>

<p>wow. that's a HUGE difference. Nearly 3-fold. Hard numbers don't lie. I don't know, but UCB seems like a far better deal...</p>

<p>Well, as the stats say, Stanford and Berkeley grads on average graduate with roughly the same debt (with Berkeley's a little lower). The difference on what they pay on average is probably more a testament to the wealth of the student body.</p>

<p>But just looking at the price tags, Berkeley's a far better deal. =p</p>

<p>
[quote]
At best, the financial aid packages that Stanford and Berkeley offer an applicant will be the same; rarely will Stanford's be better. It may appear that Stanford, and other privates, have better financial aid, but that's simply because privates are twice the price and thus have to work twice as hard in financial aid to be competitive with publics.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Think about what you just said. If it were really true that there is no substantial difference in the FA packages between Berkeley and Stanford for poor students, then why doesn't Berkeley simply match the public FA guarantee that Stanford (and other top private schools) provide? For example, Stanford specifically states in writing that no family contribution is required for families making less than 45k. Why can't Berkeley say the same? Like you said, if there is ultimately little difference between the aid packages of the 2 schools anyway, then it would cost Berkeley very little money to make the same guarantee. So why not do it? It would be a cheap and highly effective method to take away a Stanford talking point. </p>

<p>I think that the fact that Berkeley refuses to make such a match indicates that the cost of doing so would actually be rather substantial, meaning that many Berkeley needy students are nevertheless indeed being stuck with a large amount of debt.</p>

<p>
[quote]
For example, Stanford specifically states in writing that no family contribution is required for families making less than 45k.

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</p>

<p>Oh honestly, you really think that "policy" was instituted to help poor people? They were already doing such long before that (under the guidelines they set for financial aid)--formally promoting it is a PR tactic, probably to help break up the "expensive and elite" image that people attach to Stanford and other top privates.</p>

<p>
[quote]
meaning that many Berkeley needy students are nevertheless indeed being stuck with a large amount of debt.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Same at Stanford. Notice that Stanford does not require family contributions for students whose income falls below $45,000; this says nothing about the same students not taking out loans.</p>

<p>And the result is still the same: Berkeley students graduate with less debt than Stanford students on average.</p>

<p>(And to be honest, I think it's more the middle class that's rackin' up the debt; the rich can pay for it, and Berkeley is becoming more and more aggressive with FA to poor students.)</p>

<p>
[quote]
with Berkeley accommodating more taxpayers than any campus save UCLA.

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</p>

<p>I think you meant to say that Berkeley accommodates more (California) taxpayers than any UC campus save UCLA. Several of the CSU's such as Cal State Fullerton actually have more students than does Berkeley.</p>

<p>
[quote]
It's better to compare what a student, on average, pays to attend Berkeley to what the average student at an elite private normally pays. After all, it's not like most college-bound taxpayers are poor enough to attend Stanford for free.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
nless my logic is faulty, Berkeley students pay on average $6,838 (total cost of attendance minus the average financial aid package). Stanford students pay on average $19,360.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
wow. that's a HUGE difference. Nearly 3-fold. Hard numbers don't lie. I don't know, but UCB seems like a far better deal...

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
But just looking at the price tags, Berkeley's a far better deal

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</p>

<p>Guys, you have just confused the issue, and in fact, this is precisely what my latest few posts were trying to address. Nobody is denying that a far higher percentage of rich students attend Stanford than attend Berkeley. We all know that. These students have little difficulty in paying full fare. When you're rich, then the fact that you can save money by attending Berkeley probably doesn't really matter to you, because you're rich. </p>

<p>What I have been specifically talking about is what is the best financial option for you if you are poor (and also good enough to get into the top private schools). It seems to me that, given the guarantees they provide, the top private schools are probably the better deal. Berkeley refuses to commit to waive any family contribution for those making over a certain amount of income. The top private schools do. I think Berkeley should make such a commitment. But until they do, I think it is entirely proper to point out that Berkeley refuses to make such a commitment. </p>

<p>I think it is also proper to point out that Berkeley actually does provide quite generous "aid" to its students, namely its PhD students. Almost all of Berkeley's PhD students are provided with a complete tuition waiver and most are provided some form of stipend (either fellowship or TA/RA-ship). This "aid" is usually not contingent on your wealth at all. For example, I know a girl who comes from an extremely wealthy and well connected family yet is now pursuing a Berkeley PhD on full fellowship. {It's rather surreal to meet a student who actually owns her own condo in the hills and drives a new Audi, but is nevertheless getting paid by Berkeley to attend.}</p>

<p>
[quote]
Oh honestly, you really think that "policy" was instituted to help poor people? They were already doing such long before that (under the guidelines they set for financial aid)--formally promoting it is a PR tactic, probably to help break up the "expensive and elite" image that people attach to Stanford and other top privates.

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</p>

<p>Of course it's a PR tactic! But that's the point. If nothing else, Berkeley is losing the war in PR. It's high time that Berkeley began to fight back. By matching. If it's cheap and easy to do, then why not do it? But of course, if you're not doing it because it really isn't cheap and easy to do, then that points to a different problem. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Same at Stanford. Notice that Stanford does not require family contributions for students whose income falls below $45,000; this says nothing about the same students not taking out loans. </p>

<p>And the result is still the same: Berkeley students graduate with less debt than Stanford students on average.

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</p>

<p>Yeah, $1000 less, as you pointed out. Averaged over a 4-year education, that $1000 is virtually inconsequential, particularly when you factor in the aspect that you are probably getting a better educational experience at Stanford. For example,
if nothing else, at least you don't have to put up with the stupid major-impaction problem at Stanford that you do at Berkeley. You get access to, frankly, a better social network and a more powerful brand name. Given the choice, I'd very happily assume $1000 more debt to go to Stanford than to Berkeley. I think most Berkeley students would. </p>

<p>Berkeley has to be much cheaper than Stanford in order to be competitive. And when I say 'cheaper', I don't just mean sticker-price, I mean the actual cost of attendance, which is partially measured by how much debt you have to incur. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Berkeley is becoming more and more aggressive with FA to poor students.)

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<p>Great! Then why doesn't Berkeley just make the same guarantee that Stanford is making? Again, if nothing else, Berkeley would be taking away a Stanford talking point and hence battling back in the war of PR.</p>

<p>I'll also add that Berkeley supports the Educational Opportunities Program for low-income students.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Educational Opportunity Programs</p>

<p>The Educational Opportunity Program (EOP) is a recruitment and academic support program established by the university to increase the enrollment of educationally disadvantaged and low-income students. Students are provided with pre-admission counseling, and academic and personal support services. EOP eligibility is based on family income level.</p>

<p>Services available to EOP students cover a broad range of needs. Recruitment and application-related services include pre-admission counseling, application fee waivers, application follow-up, and deferral of the Statement of Intent to Register fee. Academic support for EOP students is offered through the Office of Academic Support and Instructional Services (OASIS).
The preferred method of applying is online at <a href="http://www.universityofcalifornia.ed.../undergradapp/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.universityofcalifornia.ed.../undergradapp/&lt;/a>. A limited number of copies will also be available at California high schools and community colleges, as well as at all UC campuses. EOP applicants must be California residents. To apply for EOP, check the appropriate box in the UC application designated for the Educational Opportunity Program. Fill in the information requested in the application pertaining to family size and income, parental education level and occupation. This information is used in conjunction with other information from the admission application in determining eligibility for EOP.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>University</a> of California - Counselors</p>

<p>"Great! Then why doesn't Berkeley just make the same guarantee that Stanford is making? Again, if nothing else, Berkeley would be taking away a Stanford talking point and hence battling back in the war of PR."</p>

<p>@Sakky. Well, perhaps the reason is that Berkeley can't afford to. Look at it this way, there are a lot more poor people attending Berkeley than there are attending Stanford, due to the fact most poor people can't attain the high stats that Stanford requires. Stanford can predict a minute number of low income matriculants such that they can easily give the full ride and at the same time increase it's popularity without going bankrupt. So, the perception that Stanford is trying to help the poor is misleading. If Stanford during a particular year had to matriculate only poor students whose income falls below $45000, then you will not find Stanford to be as generous as you thought. </p>

<p>Moreover, Berkeley can give out full fellowships to Phd students because there is a low number of Phd students such that Berkeley can easily afford it. The same can't be said of it's undergrad programs.</p>

<p>^^ perhaps it might be that Berkeley doesn't want to "guarantee" anything, what with the way the legislators have been about money. They don't know when they're going to cut funding, so it might not be the best to guarantee something like that, even though with the status quo, it is more or less guaranteed, just not formally.</p>

<p>
[quote]
So, the perception that Stanford is trying to help the poor is misleading.

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</p>

<p>Berkeley's perception that it is trying to help the poor is also misleading. Again, most Berkeley students are not poor. The average Berkeley student comes from a richer background than does the average Californian. {Let's face it - the average Californian doesn't have a lot of money.} Like I said before, the vast majority of poor Californians will never get admitted to Berkeley (due to the correlation between academic achievement and socioeconomic status, which is mediated by one's academic motivation and parental guidance. )</p>

<p>
[quote]
If Stanford during a particular year had to matriculate only poor students whose income falls below $45000, then you will not find Stanford to be as generous as you thought.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>But that's not a relevant point. Like I said before, Berkeley doesn't matriculate only poor students either. The majority of Berkeley undergrads are not poor. I'm quite certain that if Berkeley's entire undergrad student body consisted of those making less than $45k, then Berkeley would be cutting back on financial aid too. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Look at it this way, there are a lot more poor people attending Berkeley than there are attending Stanford, due to the fact most poor people can't attain the high stats that Stanford requires. Stanford can predict a minute number of low income matriculants

[/quote]
</p>

<p>And that's precisely what I'm talking about. It is obviously true that very few poor people are good enough to get admitted to Stanford. In fact, I have said that several times in this thread.</p>

<p>But my point is, if you happen to be one of those few, then you should probably choose to go to Stanford. The fact that there aren't that many people in the world who falls in that category doesn't matter to you. What matters is that you are fall in that category. </p>

<p>In other words, Stanford (and the other top private schools) are skimming the cream of the poor by taking the superstar poor students and giving them killer financial packages. That leaves the good-but-not-superstar poor students for UC. I would like that to change. I would like for UC to be the top choice for the very best students, including the poor superstars. Right now, I can't say that it is. Frankly, right now, the poor superstars are probably better off going to one of the top private schools and taking advantage of their killer financial deals. Sad but true. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Moreover, Berkeley can give out full fellowships to Phd students because there is a low number of Phd students such that Berkeley can easily afford it. The same can't be said of it's undergrad programs.

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</p>

<p>I'm not sure about that. While I don't have the numbers at my hand, I have a feeling that the number of Berkeley PhD students who are on a full tuition waiver + stipend is actually quite comparable to the number of Berkeley undergrads who are on a full tuition waiver + stipend. Let's face it. Practically every single Berkeley PhD student receives a full tuition waiver and some form of stipend regardless of their family income (and many Berkeley PhD students are rich). But there aren't *that * many undergrads who are receiving enough financial aid to waive their tuition completely and also get a stipend. </p>

<p>I'll put it to you this way. There are literally thousands of Berkeley PhD students that could actually be said to be 'making' money by attending Berkeley, due to the value of their doctoral financial packages. They obviously don't make much, but at least they make something. Be honest, with the notable exception of the athletes, how many undergrads can you really say are actually 'making money' by attending Berkeley? Sure, many undergrads get a financial aid package that covers some of their costs. But how many are really getting a package that covers ALL of their tuition AND provides money for living costs?</p>

<p>"I would like that to change. I would like for UC to be the top choice for the very best students, including the poor superstars. Right now, I can't say that it is. Frankly, right now, the poor superstars are probably better off going to one of the top private schools and taking advantage of their killer financial deals. Sad but true."</p>

<p>@Sakky. Well I do agree with you on that point. The poor superstars will be better off at a top private. But what strikes me as usual is how you expect Berkeley to pay for all the poor students. Stanford has a larger endowment so of course they can afford to give more fee wavers than Cal. </p>

<p>Also the main factor in regards to why phd students get better treatment is return on investment. Berkeley has more to gain by spending money on stellar grad students than they do on inexperienced poor undergrads( regardless if they are superstars or not). Berkeley would like to give every poor student a full ride, but they can't. Their resources aren't unlimited. So they have to do the best that they can to maximize their profit. And that is done through their Phd programs( which are unusually strong). Diverting their resources towards their undergrad program( their weak point ) would be a mistake. The best chances they have now as a public school is to focus on improving their grad programs and use the money generated by it to improve their undergrad. Of course this can't take place over night. It takes many years and perhaps even generations. However, you act like they have complete control, that they can get rid of all their problems just by making an administrative decision.</p>

<p>The poor superstars are very, very few in number, so Stanford isn't exactly "cleaning up," especially when you consider that there are many other top privates and publics that the students go to. And those superstars would probably get the Regents' and Chancellor's scholarship at Berkeley, which is a "killer financial aid package." Simply because Berkeley isn't formally stating that it's financial aid packages are great (i.e. saying it will waive the family contribution for families with less than $45,000) doesn't mean that Berkeley isn't attracting a large number of superstar (or really great) poor students and getting them to matriculate.</p>

<p>Not to mention that the promotion of Stanford's policy is weak. It has been watered down by other privates' initiatives and Stanford simply isn't promoting it enough to the students it might apply to. For example, I met a student this past summer who was 1) a very excellent student, and 2) poor. He wasn't even considering Stanford (Berkeley and UCLA were his top choices).</p>

<p>What's most important here, though, is this. Berkeley still carries something that Stanford can never match: a public university status. In the general students' minds, public is invariably cheaper than private, as it's meant for the people, not the elite (which is the image attached to Stanford). So Stanford can tout its new policy all it wants for PR, but Berkeley will still have the "best public in the US" label. That is much, much more powerful that any promotion that Stanford can do.</p>

<p>Being a public school (vs private) does do wonders for PR. The few, poor super-stars might end up picking Stanford. Middle class Super-stars will certainly find Berkeley a much better choice.</p>

<p>
[quote]
@Sakky. Well I do agree with you on that point. The poor superstars will be better off at a top private. But what strikes me as usual is how you expect Berkeley to pay for all the poor students. Stanford has a larger endowment so of course they can afford to give more fee wavers than Cal. </p>

<p>Also the main factor in regards to why phd students get better treatment is return on investment. Berkeley has more to gain by spending money on stellar grad students than they do on inexperienced poor undergrads( regardless if they are superstars or not). Berkeley would like to give every poor student a full ride, but they can't. Their resources aren't unlimited. So they have to do the best that they can to maximize their profit. And that is done through their Phd programs( which are unusually strong). Diverting their resources towards their undergrad program( their weak point ) would be a mistake. The best chances they have now as a public school is to focus on improving their grad programs and use the money generated by it to improve their undergrad. Of course this can't take place over night. It takes many years and perhaps even generations. However, you act like they have complete control, that they can get rid of all their problems just by making an administrative decision.

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</p>

<p>Hey, I'm a realist. I fully agree that we can't expect Berkeley to improve its undergrad program overnight. </p>

<p>But that just gets back to my basic point with which you (and others here) agree, which is that those poor undergrads who are able to get into a top private school are probably better off going there rather than coming to Berkeley because Berkeley, for various reasons that we have discussed, is unable to offer them a better overall experience. Sad but true. Whether Berkeley can't provide a better experience, or just doesn't WANT to provide a better experience, the result for that student is the same at the end of the day. </p>

<p>What you have done in your latest post is enumerate some reasons why Berkeley is more incentivized to improve its graduate programs rather than its undergrad programs. I agree with those reasons. But those reasons are simply more rationale for why the Berkeley undergrad program will never be as good as it could be, and hence why students may want to go elsewhere if given the choice. Again, sad but true.</p>

<p>
[quote]
The poor superstars are very, very few in number, so Stanford isn't exactly "cleaning up," especially when you consider that there are many other top privates and publics that the students go to.

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</p>

<p>If Stanford isn't "cleaning up" with respect to these poor superstars, then Berkeley REALLY isn't cleaning up with respect to them. </p>

<p>
[quote]
And those superstars would probably get the Regents' and Chancellor's scholarship at Berkeley, which is a "killer financial aid package." Simply because Berkeley isn't formally stating that it's financial aid packages are great (i.e. saying it will waive the family contribution for families with less than $45,000) doesn't mean that Berkeley isn't attracting a large number of superstar (or really great) poor students and getting them to matriculate.

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</p>

<p>Even if the packages were exactly the same such that a poor superstar would pay the same amount (that is, zero) at either school, that poor superstar STILL has strong reasons to prefer Stanford. Like I said before, if nothing else, that guy can then avoid stupid problems like impaction. Why risk ending up stuck in a major you don't really want if you can go to another school of equivalent (or better) quality where you don't have to take that risk? Other reasons would be the superior career services office (let's face it, Berkeley's career office isn't exactly the greatest in the world), the better networking, the better resources per capita, the relative lack of stupid weeder courses, etc.</p>

<p>What I would really like to do is for Berkeley to fix ALL of these problems, impaction especially. But given that they probably won't, then all I can say is that Berkeley can't just match Stanford's aid. It has to provide BETTER aid than Stanford does to make the experiences equivalent. </p>

<p>Just think of it this way. Given the choice of attending Berkeley or Stanford for the same price, what do you think most people would choose? Be honest with yourself now. As a further framing device, I seem to recall reading somewhere that indicate that current Stanford-Berkeley cross-admits choose Stanford by something like a 3:1 or 4:1 ratio, and that's without any price matching. Imagine what the ratio must be if all those cross-admits did receive matching prices. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Not to mention that the promotion of Stanford's policy is weak. It has been watered down by other privates' initiatives and Stanford simply isn't promoting it enough to the students it might apply to. For example, I met a student this past summer who was 1) a very excellent student, and 2) poor. He wasn't even considering Stanford (Berkeley and UCLA were his top choices).</p>

<p>What's most important here, though, is this. Berkeley still carries something that Stanford can never match: a public university status. In the general students' minds, public is invariably cheaper than private, as it's meant for the people, not the elite (which is the image attached to Stanford). So Stanford can tout its new policy all it wants for PR, but Berkeley will still have the "best public in the US" label. That is much, much more powerful that any promotion that Stanford can do.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
Being a public school (vs private) does do wonders for PR. The few, poor super-stars might end up picking Stanford. Middle class Super-stars will certainly find Berkeley a much better choice.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Now, here I agree that you guys have a point. But a point that is fading over time. After all, superstar students are precisely the sort of students who are most likely to know about the financial aid strategies used by the different schools. Sure, I agree that regular people probably don't know. But regular people aren't going to be able to get into Stanford anyway (or even into Berkeley for that matter). Furthermore, more and more people will inevitably find out about the Stanford strategy. Hence, it's a point that will fade over time.</p>

<p>Think of it this way. Again, allow me to bring up the PhD students. The vast majority of the top PhD students are not "deterred" by the pricey reputation of private schools because they know full well that they won't have to pay a dime anyway. They all know how the PhD funding process works, and they know there's little consistent difference between what they would get out of Berkeley vs. what they would get out of Stanford. {For example, one PhD applicant might find that Berkeley is offering him a better deal than Stanford is, and another PhD applicant might find the reverse, but there is no consistent pattern.} Anybody who can get into a PhD program at Berkeley or Stanford is obviously a top student, and it is part of the job of a top student to KNOW the funding that is available at the various schools. I have never heard of anybody saying that he is going to apply to the PhD programs at only the UC's because he can't "afford" to get his PhD at Stanford.</p>

<p>So...</p>

<p>Now that we've had a pleasant debate about public schools, private schools, and a slew of subjects not quite pertaining to the subject after which this thread is named,</p>

<p>can we please have some discussion about the question I asked in the original post? ;)</p>

<p>Thanks!</p>