How do you minimize indecision? (from an '08 parent)

Parents Forum
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<p>If DS1 were home to answer this question, he'd say this to his fellow juniors: talk to your friends who are a year or two ahead of you. Parental comment: I had suggested this countless times previously, only to be ignored. ;)</p>

<p>In one of the great miracles of watching my children grow up, this (formerly) shy and easily-intimidated kid has developed an entire network of friends across the country through participating in a couple of activities. Some are seniors, some are already in college, all are happy to talk about their search processes, campus visits, and the unvarnished truth about life at various colleges. These same activities have also provided him with profs who know him and who are adults (but not his parents) with whom he is comfortable bouncing around ideas.</p>

<p>On his spring break college visits with DH, he actively hunted out profs and advisors in the departments he was interested in and had an hour and a half chat with one person at CMU. He now teaches one afternoon a week. He <em>likes</em> giving presentations. You have to undersand that last summer, we visited a school and a prof invited him to come in and chat, and he was a deer in the headlights. Totally spooked.</p>

<p>So, at our house, talking to others who have been through the process has had two benefits: 1) lots of good intelligence on places to consider; and 2) TONS of personal growth.</p>

<p>This networking ability is going to prove SO useful to him as he negotiates the maze of advisors, profs, job interviews, etc. over the next few years. It is a skill both DH and I envy!</p>

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<p>I agree with the "Project Manager role" suggestions. START EARLY. We began HS Freshman year with "we'll pay for flagship state u, if you want beyond that you'll need excellent grades and scholarships." We visited a few campus' the latter part of Sophomore year, many more Junior year, and then turned the whole show (except due dates!) over to the student. There were plenty of decisions Senior year and by the time May rolled around both girls were ready to move on -- not a hint of indecision.</p>

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<p>One thing to recognize is that it's not always the highest value to "minimize indecision". While it's always possible in theory to have all the hierarchies and binary pairs sorted out in advance, with price ranges attached, that's a lot of work, and a great deal of it may be wasted once April 1 rolls around. So in fact it may be efficient to defer some of the hard analysis until April.</p>

<p>Two examples, with some additional context:</p>

<p>Someone above said, and I agree, that it's psychologically important for kids not to fall in love with their reachy "dream schools". The consequence of that, however, is that a kid facing a choice between or among dream schools may not really have a tested preference yet. And, on the whole, that's not a bad thing: as a parent, I would prefer that situation to one in which my child felt strongly that College A was clearly superior to Colleges B and C, only to be rejected by College A.</p>

<p>In our travels last spring, my son and I met a girl from Southern California who had applied to 20 East Coast schools without visiting any of them. Most of them were reaches, and she assumed that she would only be accepted at four or five. She had been accepted at 16 of them. So she had some work to do. Still, it would have taken her weeks and thousands of dollars extra to visit all 20 schools before April, and even with the weeks and dollars it would have been hard to maintain enough focus to really know something about each. With the acceptances in hand, she and her father were visiting five schools in a week, and she had plenty of focus knowing that she could choose without worrying whether they would choose her. She was going to run up against the deadline, but her process was probably more rational than deciding ahead of time.</p>

<p>Also, another reason for indecision is conflict between kid and parents -- both sides may consider the choice easy, but disagree on what that easy choice is. Part of me thinks that there's no excuse for not resolving that over the winter, but another part of me knows that it may be better to avoid having that fight in theory if it may never be necessary. I'm thinking of the kid whose father wouldn't let him visit (or choose) Cal Tech. There was a lot of bitterness there, and I don't think it would have been any less if they had had that fight in February. But if the kid hadn't gotten in to Cal Tech, and they had the fight anyway . . . why volunteer for something that could legitimately hurt their relationship for years?</p>

<p>That said, I get pretty annoyed when kids tie themselves in knots about Stanford vs. Princeton, or Pomona vs. Swarthmore. Come on. There are some basic, massive differences there, and also some basic, massive similarities. It should be possible to decide whether you want to go to school in California or New Jersey in less than a month, and you don't have to engage in detailed pseudo-analysis of microscopic differences in their physics programs to do it.</p>

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<p>To echo JHS a bit, when you visit as an accepted student, you're looking with different eyes than when you were a potential applicant. My d thought she wanted small schools, and they looked great when she was a junior. But going back as a senior, and really thinking, "What will it be like to live here for 4 years", some of the small schools began to feel claustrophobic. But it's not a question she could have asked herself during the initial hunt.</p>

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<p>I agree with alot of which has already been stated.</p>

<p>My 3 bits of advice before your son even starts college apps: 1. Research colleges 2. Research colleges 3. Narrow down the colleges to apply to. If he is focused on a major already, then that is already one hurdle he has overcome. Huge family centered trips to visit to several schools are right for some families, not for others. Personally, the 'get accepted, then we'll go' approach worked best for our family. Financially, and logistically.</p>

<p>Why kids <and parents="" who="" let="" them=""> apply to a plethora of universities, is beyond me. All that seems to do is cause more indecision and stress. The whining of 'I don't know where to go, all 17 schools accepted me!' seems unecessary if the research is done upfront, IMO.</and></p>

<p>Best wishes as you begin the fun and exhausting process!</p>

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<p>A couple of posters have commented on some kids applying to a large number of schools. This is a touchy subject, and no one can set a given number that will cover all cases. In my son's case, he applied to 8, and it should have been 6 or 7, given his complete lack of interest in a couple of them. By the standards of some families, eight is no big deal, but my son found it to be a lot to keep track of. </p>

<p>More importantly, it is difficult to feign extreme interest in a large number of schools. Even if several accept the common application, most selective schools will want a supplemental essay, and many that offer merit scholarships want still more essays. Think quality over quantity.</p>

<p>Having said that, I should repeat what I mentioned in a different thread a few weeks ago: on his own, son added school #8, which awarded him a great scholarship and is the school to which he is headed. If I had been bull-headed and insisted he go no higher than 7, the story would have a different ending. (But 20 is too many for anyone, period.)</p>

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<p>I hope there are still more, because each person adds a different and always useful perspective. I'm going to print them out and add them to my project manager file.</p>

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<p>The thread is drifting and I'm contributing and also apologizing for the double reply earlier and the typos (multi-tasking is over rated)...but I'm hard core, I think applying to more than 10 schools shows a lack of focus by the kid, a lack of direction by the guidance counselor and a lack of involvement by the parents so flame me. I think with the acception of the California system this proliferation of applications and indecisiveness of the kids is because they are applying too many places and is a major contributing factor to the angst. I'm a 5-8 kinda gal and hope that sanity prevails before my 3rd gears up in 5 years. I totally agree with the poster who commented about helping your kids learn to be decisive. It's a skill they will need time and time again in life...ever been around a conference table with someone who can't make a decision to save their life....painful. The anti-sports folk will flame me again, but sports helps with this skill. It's all about making decisions and moving forward depending on the consequences of the decision, whether it's a team sport or an individual sport.</p>

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<p>Another thought -- get the college catalogs. DS has been known to go to bed reading them (just like his mother did!). If your student has a particular interest or strength, make sure there is enough of that subject at the school for four years' worth of study. </p>

<p>DS is looking for deep vs. broad, and found after reading course catalogs that while a department may offer a wide array of courses, some didn't go deep enough into what he wants to study. This might be an issue for someone who is narrowly focused and not likely to change his/her mind on a major/program, or someone who might enter college with signifcant accelerated placement. </p>

<p>Reading the catalogs can also expose kids to new subject areas they'd never considered...that happened with DS, too.</p>

<p>While course listings may be available online, DS seemed to get more out of reading the catalogs. The nice feeling of paper, being able to curl up with a school like one can with a book, and the ability to mark up the pages...</p>

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<p>Good thought countingdown, my son liked the old fashioned printed catalog and would actually read them before bed. I, on the other hand, asked for a copy of the most recent alumni magazine....to see what kind of jobs the grads were landing and what grad schools they were going to! Plus the alumni magazine has all the pretty pictures :-)</p>

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<p>And another idea, Mo3 -- pick up campus papers when you visit to get a sense of student life, campus issues, etc. The student papers are pretty upfront about calling the administration, etc. on issues of concern, whether it's crime, drinking, vandalism, class sizes, construction...</p>

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<p>Sometimes indecision isn't bad. Some of my friends didn't want to fall in love with a school before knowing if they would get in, and thus applied to several they thought would be good for them. </p>

<p>For the students choosing b/w harvard, princeton, stanford, and mit, I don't see how he could have really avoided it given the crapshot colleges admissions are. He probably allied to all thinking that the chance of getting into one was unlikely. The mindset I took to applying is that if i don't get in here, i would rather go here, and then so on. </p>

<p>Unless your son knows for sure where he wants, it might be okay for him to be indecisive because it can cushion the blow of not getting in that "dream" school.</p>

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<p>See, I find fault with that. Having visited Harvard, MIT and Stanford I can't see that the same kid would like both Harvard and MIT. Stanford and MIT, yes. Stanford and Harvard, yes. But not all 3. I don't know much about Princeton as it was never on D's radar. </p>

<p>Doing a little bit of research up front on "fit" and don't randomly fire applications to all of the top 20. The applications should have some sort of "theme" even if it is not immediately obvious.</p>

<p>D didn't care about the surface things like size or urban/rural because she knew she was pretty adaptable, so on the surface her choices seemed incoherent, but overall her choices required a strong core and had some stron g math, science or engineering programs.</p>

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<p>Counting down, funny I forgot about the newspapers, yes I would pick those up too. Funny but true story is that the one visit I didn't go with my son he came home and said "Mom, I got you the newspaper". The one school I didn't visit was the one he picked, too. In my heart of hearts I knew enough about the school to know it was the one he would pick.</p>

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<p>Having visited the colleges as well, I can see how someone can like them all. They are not that different academically (I'm a little biased when I say this because I'm interested in math/ science- I would contend that a humanitites major shouldn't go to MIT).<br>
Many friends of mine, had to choose between top schools, and after visiting them for CPW, realize that our expectations for college may have been too high. I'm not sure what I expected when I went to admit weekend, but for reason I had hoped to experience a moment of epiphany that this one school would be perfect for me.
One person can have many conflicting interests and personalities. Harvard is more intense and competitive than Stanford, so one might argue that a laid back student should go to Stanford, but then what if the student would also rather live in a city rather than the suberbs. MIT has great engineering programs, however its humanities aren't as good. Would a engineering student interested in anthropology be better off at Harvard??? In the end, you just have to think about what you are willing to give up.</p>

<p>Plus- its too costly to visit all the colleges you might get into before you apply. Even when I did go on college visits junior year, i found the official tour at many places not helpful.</p>

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<p>this is semi-funny. a friend of mine said that this would be his perfect college:
MIT's people
Stanford's location
Princeton's campus
Caltech's scholarship
Harvard's prestige
Yale's architecture</p>

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<p>If you can't visit, most college student newspapers can be found online on the college's website (search for "student newspaper") The benefit of the online version is you can usually also access the archives, which gives you even more information and insight into campus life.</p>

<p>And, about college catalogs: While they are an important part of research, I'd suggest that it is even better to check out the actual course schedules over a couple of semesters. Often these can be found online as well (look under "current students" links). The catalogs paint a very rosie picture about the courses offered -- in reality, every course in the catalog may not be offered every semester, or even every year, and, of course, the catalog doesn't tell you anything about how hard it is to get into all those courses. The course schedules often show how many sections of different courses are offered, how many seats are available, etc. If you can't find this online, ask around when you visit.</p>

<p>And, I STRONGLY recommend looking beyond the courses offered in the intended major department. At most schools, students actually will only take about a third of their courses in their major, and many students change majors. So, also look at what's required for graduation outside of the major and what courses are offered in other departments outside the major. </p>

<p>Finally, pay attention to the academic calendar! Some kids thrive with a trimester or quarter schedule; for others, the accelerated pace can be a disaster, and they're happier with a regular semester schedule. Know your child, and encourage them to think alot about what might work for them.</p>

<p>Of course, to <em>most</em> kids, college is hard to visualize. So, the first questions I always ask when I start working with a student revolve around these questions: What have you liked most and least about your high school academic and social experience? What would you like to be different in college? What would you like to be similar? The answers are almost always revealing, and can help students visualize what they're looking for much better than just asking, "So what do you want in a college?"</p>

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<p>And, here's my one last suggestion for avoiding indecision: Early on, counsel your child NOT to talk about his list with others too much. </p>

<p>Nothing leads to indecision faster than having someone blurt out "why are you applying/planning to attend to THAT school?" I think it's a good idea for parents to also play the list and the final decision-making process close to the vest as well. </p>

<p>Doesn't mean you can't ask others for information about specific schools early in the process, but recognize that you'll likely get a lot of contradictory views along the way that might have nothing to do with whether a school is a fit for your child. </p>

<p>Once the list is complete, and results are in, as your child makes the final choice, don't ask for too much input from others, especially others who don't know your child well (or even at all!). Everyone from the mail man to internet strangers will be happy to offer an opinion, but the only opinions that matter in the end are your child's and yours. </p>

<p>Focus on that. If you've done your research, and encouraged your child to think about what they're looking for, try to avoid seeking confirmation from others that you've made the right choice, because chances are excellent that for every final decision, you'll find at least one person who thinks you're making the wrong choice.</p>

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<p>^ Best suggestion yet.</p>

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<p>"internet strangers"??? What are you talking about? Who would ever do that? :)</p>