<p>The following is an oversimplification, and by now trite, but the thing to do is identify some reaches, matches, and safeties</p>
<p>If you (or if she) does not want to “knock herself out for something that is far from certain”, then the reaches should be eliminated because by definition they are far from certain. </p>
<p>I don’t know your daughter’s profile, but for the vast majority of applicants, all the Ivies and probably all the so-called top twenty or so are less than 50:50 propositions and far from certain. The kids who are getting in to these schools, in fact, are taking a chance on something that is far from certain…whether you call that knocking themselves out or not.</p>
<p>I should not speak for others, it is just my own opinion, that youngsters do not have to knock themselves out to submit competitive applications to top-tier schools. If they are truly qualified, the applications will take some time and thought of course, but in the end they will just flow. If an applicant has to struggle with an application, it is probably a sign that maybe the school is just not meant to be.</p>
<p>If the prospect of rejection is what is being referred to in connection with being knocked out, then careful thought should be given to applying to any reaches, I think.</p>
<p>@fenwaypark , I appreciate your candor. Please bear in mind, this is all me, not my daughter, speaking. I really have no idea what schools she will ultimately go for. She is not a junior yet. She is at least ahead of many of,her classmates in that she is getting started now. I understand what you are saying,but I can tell you right now she will absolutely be applying to some reach schools. In fact, currently she is mostly only interested in reach schools. By knocking herself out, I am saying that I don’t personally want to see her go overboard (but of course, she SHOULD take a chance) to get into a school that she has a less than 10% chance of getting into. I might feel a little better if she is knocking herself out to get into a school with a 20% acceptance rate:-) And with that, I know her chances increase if she applies early decision to Brown. Right now her glass is half full, and I hope it stays that way. That is all I am saying. I think it is better for,her to approach the application process for any reach school with an attitude that if she does her best, she has a chance. But again, I don’t want her to go overboard. If she does though, then I will still support her.</p>
<p>The acceptance rates for schools are readily available. For the Class of 2018, Brown’s rate was 8.6%</p>
<p>Of course, these are overall rates and each individual applicant will have better or worse chances depending on the strength of the application. Here are some examples of more specific acceptance rates from the Brown Undergraduate Admission page, for the Class of 2017:</p>
<p>ACT 33-35…12.5%
Top 10% rank in class…11%
SAT Critical Reading 750-790…14.2%</p>
<p>Here is how I assess the risk/reward of filing an application, for what it is worth.</p>
<p>Risk</p>
<p>-Time spent on completing a competitive application instead of on other worthwhile activities
-Application fee of $75
-Possible emotional reaction to a rejection</p>
<p>Reward</p>
<p>-Applicant gets to go to Brown!</p>
<p>Whether the reward of possible acceptance is worth the risk of applying is each individual’s decision</p>
<p>In theory, your daughter should knock herself out because she wants to learn, to explore, to challenge herself intellectually, to make a difference in her community. She should do things like study hard and participate in ECs NOT to get into college, but because she wants to be a better person living in a better place. The acceptance rate of the colleges she’s interested in shouldn’t matter. Many colleges can see the difference between the student who goes overboard only for college admissions vs. the kid who does something because they love it.</p>
<p>Most parents here on CC would urge you to build your college list from the bottom up. To find safeties and matches that you really love, where you would be happy and challenged academically. Those schools do exist. Finding the reaches is easy. Instead of only visiting schools like Brown, make sure to visit schools like Fordham and American and University of Wisconsin and Beloit. </p>
<p>As a parent, I think you need to bring some sanity into the process. If she is friends with competitive students, the tension at school could get intense. You should assure your kid that you will love her no matter where she goes to school. CC is a great place to come and vent your frustrations – better do it here than at the dinner table. </p>
<p>Try to discourage your daughter from having a “dream” college. If she loves Brown and wants to apply ED, that’s great. But she should understand that she could be very happy at many other schools. Most kids who don’t get in ED eventually fall in love with the college they attend.</p>
<p>Linda, I was in your same shoes two years ago. My daughter did decide to go for it, and we did support her. For her it was a time-consuming journey - getting to know Brown, herself and how she fit in, and then putting it all together in a highly targeted and specific application package. It was risky, because she invested so much time in to Brown, it simply did not allow her the time to apply well to a whole lot of other schools. But, I felt we as her parents did hedge the risks.</p>
<p>We took it upon ourselves to research, present and promote to her primarily just ‘target’ and ‘safety’ schools, and I was pleased that we did find several other schools that she was excited about, and that would have likely admitted her. </p>
<p>As Fenwaypark suggests, a well balanced college list is key.</p>
<p>@arwarw , don’t leave me hanging…did she get in? @fireandrain , thanks, I do actually have a couple of other threads going right now about safeties and schools that might be a good fit for her. I have more specific info about her profile on those threads. I agree, reaches are easy, finding the safeties is much more difficult! My new copy of Fiske just arrived yesterday, she will have plenty to look at for,the rest of summer.</p>
<p>Found one of the other threads you started, which is entitled, “Where do the ‘cool’ kids go to college”. It is under College Search and Selection. Your daughter’s profile is relevant and helpful to this discussion:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Back to the original question about demonstrating interest in Brown…regardless of the weight Brown puts on this in the application process…I would just be honest, as you have been in the profile above, and draw what you see as the connection to Brown.</p>
<p>But, as a couple of posters have been hinting, maybe there should also be some deeper digging…beyond no dumb-dumbs, or tolerance for wastrels, or affinity for Birkenstocks or indy music.</p>
<p>I cannot imagine a conversation in the Admissions Committee along the lines of “Hmmm, Lindagaf’s daughter can’t tolerate wastrels, she is liberal but not into Birkenstocks, and our quota of indy music lovers is low, so…let’s admit her!!!”</p>
<p>In addition to these things, I think there needs to be some self awareness about academic and career objectives, and plans for contributing to the Brown community and society. I think there needs to be some explanation of why the precious opportunity to attend Brown would utilized productively and not wasted. I am sure that is there, but not sure I have seen it in any of your threads.</p>
<p>@Lindagaf, she was fortunate to be accepted ED to Brown, last fall, but I felt we were well prepared if that had not happened. She had an acceptance in hand from U of Minn and applications out to Fordham at Lincoln Center and a few other colleges. She was very excited about her visit to Fordham. Had Brown deferred or rejected her, she had planned to also apply to Barnard and Northwestern over Christmas break, and possibly, if time allowed, Williams College. All of which she had visited and would have been thrilled to attend. </p>
<p>Not that you asked, but I think what helped her admission to Brown was:</p>
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<p>In contrast, one of her close friends toured and applied mostly to Ivy League schools (which I get - those schools are very exciting), and she pooh poohed anything less. She was hammered on decision day and profoundly devastated. It was heartbreaking to watch. She is a brilliant girl, but if you were to ask her why she applied to, say, Yale or Harvard, she couldn’t give you a very convincing answer. </p>
<p>@fenwaypark , the thread you mentioned was started by me in June, before we ever visited anywhere. It is not specific to Brown or any college. I was looking for colleges that might give us a starting point, and in fact, Brown is suggested, as well as Smith, Holyoke and lots of,other excellent schools. As I said, it goes without saying that she wants an excellent education, but she is very concerned about spending four years, or more, of her life in a place she thinks she will be happy. I think that is as legitimate as any other consideration. I don’t know if Brown students like Indy music or Birkenstocks. I am guessing, as she digs deeper, she will discover those things. The suggestions generated on that thread have been really useful as a starting point. Please bear in mind, this is just the beginning for her. You can’t assume that because she views her future home for several,years as very important, that she doesn’t consider her education very important. I never imagined in that thread that “cool” would be such a controversial word.<br>
@arwarw , really great suggestions. We will certainly bear it in mind when the time comes. When she returns home in a few days, I will be sharing this post with her. I am sure she will find it useful</p>
<p>@arwarw thanks for that informative post. I’ll just say that the research I’ve done indicates that the longer for-credit summer programs like you describe are really the only ones that might contribute to an application. If you are taking a college level course at a rigorous school and do well, this should 1) indicate ability to perform at a high level and 2) demonstrate interest. If you phone it in and are more interested in having fun, participation might actually weaken your application.</p>
<p>But since these summer programs generally don’t give financial aid, there is also the view that they would not boost an app that much since it would disadvantage many qualified low income students.</p>
<p>I don’t think a one or two week non-credit “explore <insert ivy=”“>” type class really bears any weight at all.</insert></p>
<p>@ormdad, I completely agree with you. I’m sure Brown admissions viewed her summer at Brown as a pay-to-play activity, viewed much less favorably then a locally-based, self-initiated activity. </p>
<p>However, I think six weeks being with actual Brown Profs and undergrads, helped her understand Brown better and thereby helped her write a more informed application. Also, one of the profs was kind enough to send a brief email of support to admissions, which may have helped her a little to the extent it corroborated the rest of her application = or not.</p>
<p>The rep you meet will only be one of several who review. And you will likely get an interview, which can matter much.</p>
<p>The key to showing interest in an elite is to, as said, know what the school is about, what it offers you and what you offer it. Plenty of kids describe the rep, a medium sized city, “excellent professors,” study abroad. Even that Ivy grows up the walls. All that can come off generic. And sometimes superficial. OP, do you know what makes Brown unique? Does she know why she would fit and thrive, other than what she saw? That’s important.</p>
<p>There’s another thread asking why Brown says interest isn’t important. Some of us are guessing they mean the fact they don’t track campus visits. But it is very important to know the school when you apply and know the sorts of kids they like. Same for all elites. Not a bad idea for less competitive schools, too. Even if a school doesn’t ask, Why Us?, you can show how you considered the match. Or not.</p>
<p>Yes, applicants will likely get an interview with an alumnus volunteer. While these sessions can be informative and useful, they do not influence the final decision to any measurable degree…unless the applicant is rude or otherworldly charismatic.</p>
<p>This has to be the case because the volunteers get briefed by Brown, but are not formally trained. Besides, it would be impossible to standardize subjective impressions from hundreds of volunteers who represent diverse backgrounds, values, and age groups. I believe these comments would be equally applicable to all alumnus volunteer interview programs.</p>
<p>The interviews are useful for applicants to learn more about the school and, it is hoped, get some questions answered. For the Admissions Committee, interview reports can be used to confirm information or impressions gleaned from the application.</p>
<p>@arwarw For sure, the regional rep has to support an application for it to be accepted ultimately by the Committee. But I am not sure what is meant by “you must have” your rep support the application.</p>
<p>If that means applicants should prepare applications that jump off the page, I agree. If it means that applicants should be lobbying regional reps through phone calls, emails, whatever, I would think twice. That can backfire. </p>
<p>Interviews can influence adcom reactions. Wise kids come with a core knowledge of the school- applies to any interview. For kids who make it past first cut, more than 2 looks.</p>
<p>@fenwaypark I agree, I would not lobby a rep; but I would make an effort to hear what they have to say about Brown and what they are looking for in an applicant in their region. They do travel to the regions twice a year for the sole purpose of recruiting students. If you’re interested in attending Brown, why wouldn’t you go and meet the gatekeeper who will read your app and and likely present it to the committee?</p>