How does Columbia Justify This?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Columbia University
1

<p>When I was on campus this past weekend I learned something interesting about course selection at Columbia.</p>

<p>When undergraduates at Columbia choose their courses, they mix in with Barnard students from across the street. However, because Barnard chooses their courses earlier than Columbia does, the Barnard students get the first choice of all of Columbia's best classes with Columbia's best professors.</p>

<p>To me, that seems totally asinine. Why would Columbia choose to give students at a different university first choice of their best classes? Doesn't that seem totally ridiculous to anyone else?</p>

<p>Or is this just untrue and I was told incorrectly?</p>

2

<p>Welcome to Columbia bureaucracy! On the bright side, Barnard students don’t graduate from Columbia…oh wait, they do!</p>

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<p>Seriously? O_O That’s ridiculous!</p>

4

<p>It just seems stunning to me that a school that claims to want the top students gives priority in its facilities to another College, and a much lower-level College at that.</p>

<p>For a kid that was already leaning away from Columbia, hearing about that was sort of the straw that broke the camels back. How could I justify going to a school that puts their own undergraduates second over another school’s undergraduates–especially when other Ivies have the advantages in prestige and endowment to begin with?</p>

5

<p>You’ve left out an important detail. Columbia allocates appointment times based on seniority (i.e. a Barnard senior can get into a Columbia class easier than a Columbia junior). It’s not that anybody from Barnard can get into classes at Columbia easier than Columbia students.</p>

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<p>I believe that a Barnard Senior can get into classes before a Columbia Senior, even if a Barnard Junior cannot get into classes before a Columbia Senior, if you understand what I’m saying.</p>

<p>The rationale for this, as explained to me, was that Barnard registers for classes earlier.</p>

7

<p>really? MSauce that is lame - crooked is right, all students pick on days based on seniority, so it is not as if a barnard first-year picks before a columbia senior.</p>

<p>and your rather putrid disdain for barnard perhaps shows you don’t understand the culture of columbia and the fact that the undergraduate community is for all purposes essentially combined - clubs are jointly recognized, you can take classes and even live in barnard dorms. </p>

<p>lastly barnard students on avg. take 70% of their classes on barnard’s campus (which doesn’t take into account some majors for barnard students are housed at columbia, like math) - it is not as if there is some wild torrent to steal your prized course. they also have to petition to take some columbia courses (especially any seminars or upper level major courses) with their class dean, they are not automatically allowed to just sign up, as they can for barnard specific courses.</p>

<p>but you are right - with your attitude, thank goodness you are going elsewhere. i mean i hope you’re okay with those poor RISD kids taking courses at Brown, the stain of Wellsley at Harvard/MIT, the stench of Bryn Mawr at Penn.</p>

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<p>Wow, I must be misinformed–</p>

<p>Wellesley students get first pick of classes over students at MIT/Harvard?</p>

<p>The point isn’t that you hate to share classes with Barnard, its that Columbia is pretty much saying “Hey other school! Here are our best professors and most saught-after classes. You get first priority.” Its like they’re rewarding people for not going to Columbia.</p>

<p>Is it so ridiculous that I would ask my College to give me first pick of the facilities over students at other Colleges? I know Harvard-MIT does an exchange program with each other to some degree, which is more understandable–they’re both elite-level schools that offer strengths in different categories.</p>

<p>But Barnard is a significantly worse school. The problem is not that they’re getting to go to a few Columbia classes, its that they’re taking (according to your numbers) 30% of their classes at Columbia, getting the advantage to get into the best classes over equal Columbia students (AKA, Columbia Sophomore vs. Barnard Sophomore).</p>

<p>You can tout the great partnership enjoyed by the two schools, that the facilities are shared, and etc., but the bottom line is that Barnard is a separate College, with separate admissions and separate tuition and etc., and Columbia gives them the advantage in signing up for Columbia courses.</p>

9

<p>I guess my overall point would be that it appears there’s very little to be gained by this for Columbia’s undergrads, and in return, it significantly slights them. What is the advantage to allowing Barnard’s students pick of their classes over Columbia’s students?</p>

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<p>well the key to your ‘point’ is that you think barnard is so much worse. on what measure? sat scores? as a women’s college it attracts a different population first and foremost. let alone the fact that the faculty at barnard are dually hired by barnard and columbia faculty - so there is no drop in level taking classes on their side of the street.</p>

<p>and the ratio is often skewed primarily because there are some barnard students that HAVE to take columbia classes for their major as they don’t have any other option. it is entirely possible, and many barnard women do this, to never take a class at columbia. so you see a good mix bag in this regard.</p>

<p>“30% of their classes at Columbia, getting the advantage to get into the best classes over equal Columbia students (AKA, Columbia Sophomore vs. Barnard Sophomore).”</p>

<p>i don’t get this - a columbia sophomore can sign up for classes the same day as a barnard student does. what is this talk about advantage. columbia does it through ssol, barnard through l-course. and there are a lot of courses that require special approval for barnard students to take them (the ones that usually list CC and SEAS as the only schools that can take the class in the directory of classes) that barnard students need to get approved before they can sign-up for them.</p>

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<p>So you think Barnard is an equal school to Columbia? You’re right, the key to my point is that Barnard is a significantly inferior school to Columbia. Do you not think that’s true?</p>

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<p>Columbia students and Barnard students register at the same time, based on seniority. Yes, this means Barnard upperclasswomen register before Columbia underclassmen. If a class is full, you can always register next semester, when you will have higher seniority. At the same time, Columbia upperclassmen register for Barnard classes before Barnard underclasswomen, so in the end, it’s a wash. In any case, since Barnard faculty hires must go through Columbia approval, there is no ‘drop’ in teaching quality. I’ve taken 2 classes at Barnard in my 4 years, and they were both excellent.</p>

<p>After 8 semesters of registering, I’ve never encountered a situation where I haven’t been able to take a class because it was full. This whole Barnard is worse than Columbia discussion is petty, and make you seem insecure. Since you are a legacy at Columbia, I would have expected you to understand the Columbia-Barnard relationship better than to Barnard-bash, MSauce.</p>

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<p>So Barnard isn’t worse than Columbia? Are you being serious? With Barnard so much easier to get into, why wouldn’t all women just apply to Barnard instead until the admission rates were, at least, equal?</p>

<p>Astrolion, here’s a question I asked earlier (because this is what I’m told, and I’m not sure if its true)–who gets into a class first: a Barnard Junior, or a Columbia Junior? Or Senior-Senior? Or etc.</p>

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<p>To back up MSauce here, the belief that Barnard is wholly understandable. I don’t want to devolve into numbers because 1) I don’t have the time to look them up and 2) since when is it established that having approximate numbers in a few criteria constitutes being of equal caliber? You can not deny that the knowledgeable public at large considers Columbia “better,” superior. And so, having this good judgment will benefit Columbia students more. And with this additional benefit over barnard, Columbia is better.</p>

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<p>How does the Columbia professor grades Barnard students vis-a-vis Columbia students? Does the professor have a different grading scale for Barnard students since MSauce think that Barnard students are inferior? If that is the case, a mix student body in an intense / rigolous class would skew the grading in favor of Barnard students. Can a Barnard students contribute to the rigolous discussion in class compared to the smarter Columbia students?</p>

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<p>Barnard students seem to benefit more in this cross-registration arrangement with Columbia it would seem. If that is the case, I can understand why Columbia students are ****ed because the mix student body Columbia get from having a lower caliber students in the same class may dump down Columbia’s prestige.</p>

17

<p>For some reason you seem hell-bent on turning this into a Barnard vs Columbia discussion, and are completely missing the point. Reiterating:</p>

<p>1) Columbia students can take Barnard classes, and Barnard students can take Columbia classes.
2) Registration is done by seniority, so Columbia juniors register at the same time as Barnard juniors, etc.
3) Barnard underclasswomen can be shut out of Barnard classes by Columbia upperclassmen, and Columbia underclassmen can be shut out of Columbia classes by Barnard upperclasswomen, so it’s a wash.
4) This is not something Columbia or Barnard students worry about, because in the rare event that a class is full, there are very easy ways to get around that (the professor has power to add people to a full class), and you can always register next time, when you have higher seniority.
5) Barnard faculty hires must go through Columbia approval, there is no ‘drop’ in teaching quality across the street.
6) There are other effects that affect people’s ability to register for a class that are much more pronounced than whether or not Barnard students are taking up spots, e.g. whether or not a very popular professor is teaching the class.</p>

<p>In as much discussion (be it positive or negative) as I’ve heard over the past 4 years concerning Barnard, I’ve never heard a student complain about not being able to take a class because Barnard girls are taking spots away from Columbia students. This whole discussion seems absurd to me, a current student.</p>

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<p>To answer the other questions:</p>

<p>Columbia students and Barnard students are graded on the same scale. If you believe that Barnard students are so inferior to Columbia students, then this will only benefit you by lowering the curve. </p>

<p>Statistically, Columbia students take approximately the same number of Barnard credits in total as Barnard students take Columbia credits. So no, Barnard students do not ‘rush’ across the street to receive ‘better’ instruction.</p>

<p>Some of you seem to think that Barnard girls are mentally handicapped delinquents that destroy your ability to learn in a classroom setting. This is a rather juvenile and uninformed view, which I admit I may have once believed to be true, until I got my ass handed to me in class and on exams on numerous occasions by Barnard students. I’m no cheerleader for Barnard, but the fact that Barnard girls are in your class does not affect anything (you won’t be able to tell if they’re Barnard or not without asking them), and certainly isn’t worth anybody wetting their pants over.</p>

19

<p>What’s strange is that I spent two days on campus and I was told in two separate places about how unfair this was (once from a family member, once from a group of students, all freshman in both cases, if that makes a difference).</p>

<p>How can you say there’s no drop off across the street? Columbia needing to approve the hires doesn’t mean the hires are equal at all. Columbia is going to (or at least should) attract better faculty as the more prestigious body. I think most people around here would agree that the quality of education gotten at Columbia is going to be better than at Barnard–which is why Columbia attracts better students and faculty, and has more successful alumni.</p>

<p>Let’s just be clear here–the biggest problem is not that you won’t be able to take a class. Its that at Columbia (like a lot of other schools) your class experience depends greatly on who is teaching you. So if you want to get into a certain Chemistry class that many students take, you probably will be able to get into one of the, say, three times the class is offered.</p>

<p>But the one time with the best professor is going to fill up first. And even if there are three Barnard students who get into that class with the best professor, that’s three fewer Columbia students that will get to be with that professor, and may have to be in a class with a much worse professor (or worse, grad student). That doesn’t seem like many–unless, of course, you’re one of the three, in which case its 100% of your experience in that class that is altered.</p>

<p>I don’t think I’m alone in thinking that its ridiculous students from other colleges should get priority over me in learning from the best teachers at my college, without much benefit to me and my fellow undergrads. It doesn’t seem like that’s such a ridiculous thing to request of my school.</p>

<p>And for me, it was definitely the deal-breaker. From the sound of this thread, there are a lot of other people who aren’t current Columbia students who aren’t fans of the policy, either. If the rationale is “Its OK because Columbia and Barnard are pretty much equal schools, anyways,” then I think I’m totally justified to think that its a poor policy that’s tough to defend.</p>

<p>Edit: I also don’t think Barnard girls are idiots, but rather that their school is not as nice, and that the classes and professors at Columbia are better than those at Barnard.</p>

20

<p>I’m not going to waste any more time going through the same arguments, but I will say that as a student who’ve spent nearly 4 years here, this is not at all an issue that actual Columbia students worry about. To be blunt, I think admissionsgeek (a former student) and I have a better understanding of the situation than freshmen or people who have never taken a class at Columbia.</p>