How does gifted slacker S get into college?

<p>I've skimmed through 14 pgs of threads looking for one on this subject. I'm sorry if this has already been addressed, but I'm going crossed-eyed reading all these posts.</p>

<p>Problem: gifted S, was doing great in 9th grade, half of 10th, then suddenly grades plummeted. They haven't improved in 11th, steadily getting worse. All attempts in getting help from teachers and counselor have failed. I can't pinpoint the problem; have tried all sorts of approaches. Nothing will light a fire under him. I suspect it is a fear of failing to be perfect, since that has plagued him since preschool. Then it seemed mildly frustrating, slightly silly. Now it's critical. When he chooses to work, he does a superb job. We're on damage control now. He has good SAT's, lots of awards from competitions, enough EC's and a smattering of volunteer work to look good for a second tier (though he's smart enough for a top tier). If his grades were good, he'd probably have his choice of schools. The nosedive from 9th to 11th in grades can't be ignored, but I can't get him to face that. Any hope? Any advice? Would interviews help or hinder? Anyone else been down this road?</p>

<p>I know a brilliant slacker kid who got into a school his grades and test scores alone would not have gotten him into. He had, I am told, a really remarkable interview. They could see how smart he is, and took him in spite of his not-so-inspiring stats.</p>

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Nothing will light a fire under him. I suspect it is a fear of failing to be perfect, since that has plagued him since preschool. Then it seemed mildly frustrating, slightly silly. Now it's critical.

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<p>Did you ever think your parenting had something to do with this? Have you raised him with unreasonable expectations out of him? I don't think you can get help for such a deep-seated issue from teachers and counselors. You're probably going to need therapy for you and your son.</p>

<p>Our kids need to OWN their situations and destinies. We can only make the world a bit friendlier but we cripple them when we try to make everything easier and don't let them deal with the consequences of their choices. It may sound unfair, but really it IS life. My kids had chronic health issues that have dogged them for the past 8 years. I did what I could to help the schools understand and make some accommodations but they have had to deal with the consequences -- including some that honestly were not fair. </p>

<p>I believe that them dealing with adversity has made them stronger and also strengthened their friendships and self-resiliance. This would NOT have happened if I took a larger role in doing all I could to make things more comfortable for them.</p>

<p>My D was forced to leave her HS a year before she was scheduled to graduate. She took the opportunity to get a GED, graduate early & begin college, which has worked out OK for her. She's now in community college & also dually enrolled for next fall in our state flagship U. She will be considering transfer options and possibly studying abroad.</p>

<p>I'm not sure it makes sense for YOU to try to get your S to make changes since it needs to be HIM. It might be good for your S to consider local options & then transfer when he's more motivated to put energy into his studies.</p>

<p>I'd suggest you have him evaluated for possible depression or maybe anxiety. This should start with a visit to his MD. Perfectionistic kids--and adults-- can be prone to these problems because of the overly high expectations they place on themselves. Does he have something that really gives him pleasure--possibly non-academic--an interest, an EC, a hobby--that he can enjoy without pressure to achieve? Does he have good friends? What messages do you think he might be getting from family, school, etc. about achievement and his value as a person apart from grades?</p>

<p>With my kids I have focused on "doing your personal best" not being the best. Making the most of your gifts...etc... And of course your best may vary from day to day - everybody has an off day. </p>

<p>I mention this because one of my children has an anxiety/OCD issue, and feels that nothing less than perfection is okay. If your son has issues with a fear of being less than perfect, maybe he is having anxiety issues. For many HS students the unreasonable expectations are part of an internal dialogue that has nothing to do with the parents - "Mom" is not always to blame, despite what afruff23.</p>

<p>Letting him find his own path may work to a certain extent, if his problems are only motivation, poor choices or lack of consequences. But if he has a mental health issue, he may benefit from some guidance in getting help. It may or may not work, and you can't force him to work with a counsellor, but at least you will know you've done your best.</p>

<p>WM--been in a similar situation. What I found helpful (sounds trite) is to encoruage the good things the child is doing (his awards, ECs, etc. sound great!). And, focus on him making a good effort. </p>

<p>Also--I realized my son (who rarely studied, all through elem/mid school) actually had little understanding of proper study habits. As such, I got much more involved in his later HS work than I ever did when he was younger (sounds the opposite of 'just let them take the consequences' -- although I definitely see the value in that).</p>

<p>For history tests, I'd go over the review sheet w/son question by question. I'd read the chapter (very long) ahead so I could ask him substantive stuff. I'd review his English essays and ask him if he could improve x,y,z. Of course he wasn't a total fan of this (!) but I tried to stay focused on the subject matter (started discussions about history, etc., so it wasn't all about 'do this!').</p>

<p>When he did well...I wouldn't involve myself in his next test/quiz as much. Goal--to get less involved (I'd say: "if you don't want me involved, prove you can do it.'). </p>

<p>I'm sure many people will say this is a completely wrong approach; I'm not helping son succeed in the long run, etc. etc. However, for a (smart) kid who was getting low grades because he didn't/wouldn't work...it helped him see what 'real studying' looks like. Other factors came into play as well, of course (maturity, etc.) but this was a piece of it.</p>

<p>I also tried to show I cared about him whatever his grades were.</p>

<p>I've been down a similar road. Afruff is somewhat correct regarding the parenting skills. Our solution, along with a counsellor, was to send him to boarding school (luckily he tested very, very well and got into a great school even with mediocre grades). He's graduating from college now and has done very well on his own.
Even if boarding school is not an option for your son, I think that going to college (and he WILL get into college) and moving away from home will be his turning point.
I wouldn't worry about 1st tier vs. 2nd tier colleges. There are many so-called 2nd tier schools which will be challenging enough for him.</p>

<p>Jolynne Smyth has something in the study habits issue. I had a gifted S who sailed through until HS. Between a slight LD issue that affected his ability to organize and the fact that he had never really had to learn to study before; he had a lot of issues with homework and grades as he got further into HS. A specialized tutor helped a lot to get over some of those. Unfortunately the bad habits were never really conquered and he never learned to do the amount of studying required for college. So he never got the grades he could have in HS or to stay in college. Not sure what we could have done differently, but he is finding his own way now. Taking a little longer to mature. Also see the threads for Mom of Sons. A lot of sympathy.</p>

<p>Really hard to tell what to do without knowing a lot more about the kid. to me, the real question is not where S is going to college, but whether he will be prepared to succeed in life. (Unfortunately "gifted" people often do not succeed). Two possibilities:</p>

<p>a) Are you sure that drugs are not involved?</p>

<p>b) How about a gap year working at Dunkin' Donuts? I hate to sound harsh, but maybe that would wake him up.</p>

<p>b)</p>

<p>I agree that you might want to seek medical advice. Also, who is your son hanging with? Sometimes, friends can play a role in what he might or might not do. There is a student of mine who is very bright, but quiet. He had been hanging out with one or two people who seemed to bring him down. His grades suffered, but so did his reputation in the eyes of other teachers. Since he sees less of those people, he is a much happier kid. You can see it. He has begun to seek out advice from others who might be able to assist him in his educational goals. </p>

<p>Best of luck with your son.</p>

<p>One more thing to check is whether he is "addicted" to computer games. Some students spend many hours/day gaming, and lose track of time and priorities.</p>

<p>"Did you ever think your parenting had something to do with this? Have you raised him with unreasonable expectations out of him? I don't think you can get help for such a deep-seated issue from teachers and counselors. You're probably going to need therapy for you and your son."</p>

<p>You jumped to conclusions in a very cruel way. I have 2 gifted sons, both of whom have been slackers. The younger one always was very perfectionistic, and that was something that he was born with. While sometimes parenting can cause perfectionistic, kids also are born with their own personalities and characters, and some really are born perfectionistic.</p>

<p>To the OP:
Here's my advice having been in your situation. Do not move heaven and earth to get your slacker son/gifted into college because he may do exactly what my older S did. S told me he wanted to go to college, so I did the work of searching for colleges that he found appealing. I also stood over him to make sure that he got his apps in on time and well done.</p>

<p>S was a very appealing applicant to the mainly 2nd tier colleges where he applied: High test scores, rigorous IB curriculum (that was his choice), an academically-related EC that he had pursued out of passion and was one of the best in the country in. He ended up getting accepted at places like Vandy, Syracuse and chose his 2nd choice, U Minn., which gave him virtually full merit aid.</p>

<p>Then he went off to college, continued pursuing his EC via the school newspaper, where he spent about 30 hours a week, and didn't go to class, getting a .46 average (you read that right) first semester. The college allowed him to stay with scholarship for one more semester, and he did even worse.</p>

<p>After that, he went off on a paid full time internship followed by a 6-month temporary job, where he wasn't hired into a full position probably because the company didn't want to appear to be encouraging him to stay out of college.</p>

<p>Long story short: After a couple of years living far from home and not working while staying with a well intentioned, but misguided relative who wouldn't let him pay rent, S really ended up on his own when the relative retired and moved away. At that point, S woke up to the fact that he didn't want to live in the kind of dumps that his so-called profession as a punk rock musician (something he pursued after dropping out of college) got him. </p>

<p>So, he moved with a friend to another state, got a full time office job, and has been supporting himself in an apartment for 2 years now. He's 24. Still brilliant. Doesn't want college. Says he always hated school, and doesn't want nor need college. He is one of the most informed people you'd ever meet. Reads the great books for fun. Has 400 pages finished of a novel he's writing for fun. Is happy.</p>

<p>Incidentally, H is a college prof, and I was a college prof during most of S's childhood. S literally grew up on a college campus and had many college student "siblings".</p>

<p>Other S-- gifted, slacker, though unlike his brother always loved school. We applied the lessons that we had learned with older S, and did not stand over younger S to make sure that he followed through with college apps. Younger S gathered applications together, looked like he was working hard on them, but never got them. Two weeks after the app deadlines passed, he was promised an Americorps job, something that he found on his own and happily did for a year after graduation while living at home and paying rent</p>

<p>We had told younger S that if he suffered major senioritis senior year in h.s., we would not pay for college until he had gotten at least one year of a 3.0 average. S almost didn't graduate from h.s. because of horrendous senioritis.</p>

<p>During his Americorps year, on his own, he applied to colleges, selected an expensive private LAC, which gave him some merit aid, but even with that, he had to take out huge loans and work during the school year. He is there now, and got a 3.66 fall semester, and says his grades are fine this semester. When we visited him once, we ran into a student who referred to him as "the guy who is always studying in the library." By his own choice, he had left his computer games at home, and didn't get a TV.</p>

<p>Things we had tried with our sons when they were in high school: therapy (for them, for us. Two different therapists said we were good parents and our kids' slacking was not our fault), ADD/ADHD meds (older S is ADHD, younger is ADD, I'm ADD-- diagnosed at age 50, have an Ivy education and a doctorate), counseling on organizational skills, micromanaging their homework, teacher conferences, active role in parent organizations at school, taking them around to colleges, exposing them to careers, encouraging them to follow their passions.... You name it, we tried it.</p>

<p>It ends up, though, that their lives really are in their hands. Some very bright students like older S do not want to go to college and will not work when they go there even if they go on their own volition (H and I had encouraged older S to take a gap year and pursue his interest in journalism fulltime. He had refused). </p>

<p>I have a couple of friends who are college profs who as youths acted exactly as did older S including flunking out of college and pursuing rock music "careers".</p>

<p>I also know some brilliant adult males who dropped out of college, never returned, and then pursued vocational careers like carpentry with success.</p>

<p>The best advice I can give you is not to do the work of getting your S into college, and do make him responsible for funding a major part of his education. He's a bright guy and can get into college if he chooses to. If he doesn't, have him be responsible for supporting himself. I think that one reason that older S finally bounced back and became employed full time is that H and I always had told our sons that after h.s., they would not be welcome to live at home unless they were in college full time or working full time, paying rent and following the family rules. </p>

<p>Younger S wasn't pleased to have to pay rent when he was a full time Americorps volunteer (they get a stipend). His friends (all of whom were great kids, excellent grades, who went to college right after h.s.) thought H and I were mean to have S pay rent and to not pay for his first year of college. However, our strictness on this helped younger S clearly see that he could not live the high life on the type of job that you get without a college ed. His having to take financial responsibility for his college education also helped him take it very seriously.</p>

<p>So....I hope this helps. Feel free to PM me, too.</p>

<p>Hugs to you. I know how frustrating it is to have a bright, slacker son. Once I let go of trying to take responsibiiity for their lives, my own life brightened quite a bit including by my getting deeply involved in some activities and hobbies that I'd put off since I was a teen.</p>

<p>As a teacher of the Gifted and Talented, what you describe is NOT unusual, but a given in a large percentage of these kids. The fear of failing and being less than perfect makes many of these kids just not do it, because they have the excuse of "It wasn't me - if I had done it I would have had the A." I helped one such student get into college. His biggest problem was that he felt intellectually superior to many of his teachers, and wouldn't do what he saw as "busy work." He almost failed my class. A carefully drafted letter of recommendation in which I stated this and said that when he loved something he excelled, and would blossom in a college environment without all the restrictions of high school, helped him. They deferred his acceptance until second semester, based on his improving his grades. That incentive made him do that, and he was accepted. Also, I noted that he was on book 38 of the "100 books a Literate Person should read." He was doing this on his own. Your S sounds a lot like him. Do not despair. Find the teachers who he connects with and have them explain this and he will have a positive outcome, as well.</p>

<p>How good are the SATs? How bad are the grades?</p>

<p>Dear Weary,</p>

<p>I have an idea. Next fall, a few weeks into the college school year, have him visit a friend in a dorm (preferably at a school he could get into) and stay overnight on a school night. In the morning or mid day of the second day, have him sit in on one class, a freshman class in a subject he likes.</p>

<p>This will let him see the fun and independence he could have if he went away to college the next fall, and how much fun college classes are compared to hs classes, and maybe it would inspire him to work on college apps and have a stronger senior year.</p>

<p>If this doesn't work, remember, college is not for everyone and particularly taking full time classes the year after high school is not for everyone. Start another thread here and you will get a million ideas for a gap year.</p>

<p>If he does want to go to college once he starts thinking about it in the fall, try not to fret over those grades. There are many fine colleges that are not hard to get into, and if he goes to one that is not quite right for him, he could always transfer.</p>

<p>A smart kid like him might very well thrive while away at college</p>

<p>MidwestMom</p>

<p>p.s. Others may have more professional insight on this, but in my opinion as a mom, community college is not a good idea for next year. Too much like high school. I think this young man needs a change. </p>

<p>p.p.s. I also would discourage him from applying to schools known for highly competitive student bodies. He might very well get into a competitive top tier school full of competitive kids (and he is smart enough) but I think this kind of environment would be bad. I think he would thrive at schools known for being "fun." Not party schools, but schools that have shown up on the "happiest students" list. You might consider DePaul - not too hard to get into, and with good test scores and community service, he could be in consideration for merit aid there. (Or maybe an in-state public school - not the flagship - that is far enough away that he is on his own?)</p>

<p>My concern is the decline since 9th grade. With more difficult and interesting coursework, a gifted child/adolescent will often kick into gear because s/he likes the challenge. That's why I'm suggesting looking into a physical/emotional cause. Not because I know there is a problem, but if there is one, OP would surely want to address it.</p>

<p>"All attempts in getting help from teachers and counselor have failed."</p>

<p>Why have all attempts failed? What do the teachers and counselors tell you about their perceptions of your child? What does plummeted mean - used to get As now getting Ds or used to get As now getting Bs? Or his is plummet in one area eg.: getting As in math, but not so great in humanities? You say he is "gifted"...what type of curriculum or school is he in? I don't have any background to give advice here, but there's not much information in your original post to weight he your S is in fact "at risk." My son just really hated the daily homework, tested well, but grade dropped slowly from 9 through 12 in certain classes because a huge component of the grade was the homework. My son was also not competitive about grades - he's more of a kid who learns for himself and the more competitive the top tier kids got, many were childhood friends, and believe me some of those kids cheat and everyone knows... the less he was "willing" to compete and the more stubborn he got to parental intervention. He's much happier in college and so are we. The hardest thing I ever did as a parent was let go of "my" competitive nature with this son.</p>

<p>Wearymom,
You may want to look into the research done by Carol Dweck. There is a current thread in the parents forum <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/503623-struggle-challenge-good-work-carol-dweck.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/503623-struggle-challenge-good-work-carol-dweck.html&lt;/a>
from which I borrowed this quote</p>

<p>“In short, intelligence praise made students feel good in the moment, but it made them afraid of challenge and unable to cope with setbacks."</p>

<p>Her research shows that often "gifted" students, who have received praise their whole lives about how "smart" they are, often avoid challenges because of their fear of failure. This might be the epiphany that both you and your son need to figure out why he is struggling now. As Northstarmom and ejr1 mention, "gifted" kids are often perfectionists, and need to be told [and to remind themselves from time to time] that it is OK not to be perfect. It's the effort that counts.</p>

<p>You might want to have him see a psychologist. They can sometime pinpoint problems that a parent may not be able to.</p>