How Does MIT Justify This Expectation?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Massachusetts Institute of Technology
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<p>

wowowow do I ever know this thought. I have loved MIT for a long time, though recently, since the stress of fall application season and my deferment in December, it’s dropped on my list because I don’t want to get too attached to a place that’s not an option. If, though… if it does become an option for me, @molliebatmit, how did you find yourself changing or coping to adapt to MIT’s environment? My impression had been that those who don’t ask for help (in my case it’s usually imposter syndrome) might not do well at MIT, so I’m wondering if this is false and/or how you dealt.</p>

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<p>This is an interesting question, because it is not true, but there is a germ of truth to it. The key thing here is that the adjustment to MIT is something that everyone has to experience. MIT for its part does quite a bit to ensure that it goes smoothly. For example, many students and alumni (myself included) found that the study skills that worked to get them smoothly through high school were inadequate to get them through MIT. Fortunately, you arrive into an environment that is Pass/No Credit in your first term freshman year, and in those first few weeks, when you realise that you are getting C’s (or worse), you have the ability to make the adjustments that you need without damaging your transcript. Further, everyone around you is going through the same. The second thing that is very unusual for most kids is that in high school there just wasn’t such a thing as a problem set that was designed to be done collaboratively by a group of students working together. In most living groups, the formation of these groups are encouraged along by those who have had to go through it the year before. And most living groups are extremely supportive of their residents, and students usually choose their living groups based on an affinity for those already there. Imposter syndrome is not an unknown thing at MIT, but these adjustments are made and usually very well. </p>

<p>Very, very rarely, MIT encounters a student who really struggles to make the adjustment. I recall such a student who was living with me (as one of three other roomates) in a “quad” in my Fraternity. He was struggling to recognise the trouble he was in, but we could see that he was having real problems. After discussing this with the house master, we chose to approach a counselor at the office of (what is now) the Dean for Student Life. [Aside: Starting a conversation with a counselor with “Well I have this friend who has a problem…” is fraught with difficulty]. The counselor approached the student’s academic advisor, who was unaware of the situation. The relevant resources were put into place so that when the student did in fact go to the MIT Committee on Academic Performance, there was counseling and support in place to help the student put things right, even though the student was not prepared to put his hand up and ask for that help. Now, yes we did meddle in that kid’s personal affairs, and that wasn’t our business, but the culture in our living group was that we looked out for each other, even if in cases like this, the person who needed help struggled to ask for it. </p>

<p>MIT does a lot to reduce the pain and pressure. There is, for example, no classes of degree at MIT. It is not possible to graduate from MIT summa cum laude. That does not exist. There is only one class of degree, and there is no way to get a degree other than by passing through MIT. There are no honorary degrees from MIT (though MIT does offer honorary membership in the Alumni Association). It is a problem that a lot of students go through, and nearly everyone gets through it. It is all a different manifestation of imposter syndrome. Nearly every year at the admitted students receptions, I meet at least one student who is thinking of turning down MIT’s offer of admission, because “MIT admits all of these great geniuses and somehow they screwed up and accepted me.” The admitted students receptions, and in particular campus preview weekend does go a long way to assuaging this. (“Oh look, all these other kids are just like me”). MIT Admissions almost never screws this up. If you are admitted, you can do the work, and you can indeed prosper at MIT. Relax and fret not.</p>

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<p>I think MIT can be a very, very good place for someone who’s naturally reluctant to ask for help – for someone like me. </p>

<p>Partly this is because MIT has far more opportunities available than students, so you don’t have to “beat down doors” (as an Ohio State professor put it to me on a scholarship weekend) to get a research position or a work-study job. You aren’t expected to be outstanding above and beyond the regular student population to get your first undergraduate research position, and being just the regular kind of outstanding that got you into MIT in the first place is a-ok. </p>

<p>Academically, MIT is hard enough that everyone struggles, and it’s just normal behavior to form a study group and do your problem sets with your friends and classmates. It doesn’t mark you as weak or stupid to ask for help, because it’s what everybody does, and it’s what everybody needs to do. In some sense, you don’t need to ask for help, because helping other people and being helped yourself is something of a default.</p>

<p>MIT is also a collection of small communities, from living groups to extracurricular groups to academic departments. It’s pretty easy to find a niche (or two or three) without having to feel like you’re desperately searching for friends. </p>

<p>MIT made me tougher and more confident in my abilities, though that process involved a lot of hard work and a lot of feeling inadequate along the way.</p>

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<p>Perhaps it’s not. Perhaps they analyse your risks in the context of your community and personal experience? I’m sure they don’t expect everyone to show the same degree of accomplishment, but they want to see how you responded to your environment.</p>

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<p>“MIT made me tougher and more confident in my abilities, though that process involved a lot of hard work and a lot of feeling inadequate along the way.”</p>

<p>+1 </p>

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<p>Since I haven’t annoyed anyone on this forum in a while ( :slight_smile: ), I thought I’d post a few comments about the Agatha Christie interview question and the aftermath. </p>

<p>A disclaimer or two first: I realize that the interviews take place in real time, so that follow-up questions that occur after-the-fact might not occur to either the interviewer or interviewee within the interview time frame. Also, I understand that the full context of an interview cannot be given here, for multiple reasons.</p>

<p>However, with regard to the student who stated that Agatha Christie had become one of his favorite authors, but apparently had “never read a book that had not been assigned to him to read”–Immediately, I wondered: </p>

<p>1) Why was that? Did the student really mean that he had never read a book that was not assigned, or was the student being a bit clumsy in verbal expression, and actually meant that he had not read any unassigned Agatha Christie books, specifically?</p>

<p>2) Did the student come from a high school that was relatively weak academically? Just the fact that Agatha Christie was apparently assigned at high-school level makes me think that might have been the case. Yet the student was presumably plausible as an MIT applicant. So perhaps he/she had overcome a lot, just to be in a position to apply?</p>

<p>3) What did the student do in the summer? Was the student’s access to books limited in some way during the summer? How did he/she spend time during the academic year?</p>

<p>4) Really, what is wrong with the school that the student attended? In a circumstance like this, it does not seem likely to me that the student is entirely to blame for missing out on an important source of life enrichment.</p>

<p>Incidentally, in my opinion, there is a “correct” answer to the Marple/Poirot question, but it is gender-specific. For a woman, the only correct answer is “Marple.” :slight_smile: Poirot and his “little gray cells” are annoyingly arrogant in a way I would have thought that MIT would not like. Furthermore, although it has been quite a long time since I read any of Agatha Christie’s books, I am inclined at this point to wonder whether Poirot is portrayed as bit of a self-important buffoon, actually. I would certainly question whether Christie had entirely sympathetic feelings toward the character. For a man, I think there is no good choice between Marple and Poirot–maybe Tommy and Tuppence becomes “right” then.</p>

<p>Personally, I’d like to feel that the interviewers are all rooting for the applicants they interview–even for applicants who have said something ill-advised or even downright stupid, at some point in the interview. The odds are long enough, in any case.</p>

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<p>Just another quick thought: Depending on how weak the student’s school actually was, it is possible that he would recognize the name Her-kyool Poy-rot, but not Hercule Poirot. (Just thinking about everything I have seen in print, but not heard pronounced.)</p>

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<p>I suppose what I am driving at with the long list of questions is this: If an applicant responds with a pretty bad gaffe during an interview, Is the interviewer predisposed to see whether there might be a reasonable interpretation of the remark, or is the interviewer predisposed to write the applicant off? That is probably at the root of the OP’s question as well.</p>

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<p>They’re rooting for you. They also realize that you guys are high school kids :slight_smile: They want to find out what makes you interesting, not scrutinize you to dock points.</p>

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<p>Oh of course I wanted him to do well. Frankly there were a myriad of follow up questions. There really isn’t any trap here. It took a good fifteen minutes for me to bottom this one out. From the kid’s perspective, he had enrichment. Every summer the school published a reading list for enrichment, and he had always read at least one of these. He was a friendly and well presented young man but I have never encountered anyone with less intellectual curiosity than this interviewee. I was genuinely baffled. </p>

<p>The overwhelming majority of ECs go into this both to give something back to their alma mater, but also more broadly to meet the brilliant, talented, wonderful students who are applying to MIT. And the great thing is that MIT is a very self-selective school. Most of the students that I meet are great kids. Maybe 2% of my applicants (including this one) fall into the bucket where I feel that I have to write a very negative interview report. </p>

<p>Now it is possible, though I think unlikely, that he was deliberately sabotaging the interview. We do get that from time to time when we meet an applicant with no interest in MIT whatsoever, but whose parents are insisting that they apply. Often they will admit that at the (short) interview. However, sometimes they choose to give answers that obviously match poorly with MIT.</p>

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<p>I understand that nothing more can be said about the specifics of the applicant’s school. Still, it seems to me that the school really fell short in helping to educate that particular applicant. The “Why? Why? Why?s” of a lot of 2-year-olds suggest that a certain amount of intellectual curiosity is innate; yet I am quite certain that it can be developed or squelched by a school. Do the interviewers ever provide feedback to the schools about their curricula or expectations for the students?</p>

<p>The younger brother of a friend of QMP’s had a “behavioral contract” at his school when he was in 4th grade. The contract required that he could not ask any questions of the teacher in science, unless the answer was in the book. (Please read that carefully–it’s not a typo.) I don’t know how this played out in the long run.</p>

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<p>It’s not just intellectual curiosity that can get squelched. When my daughter was younger I can recall looking for an elementary school for her. We were walking through one well known school and my wife pulled my arm and said (paraphrasing), “Mikalye, look at the children’s art on the walls. Every kid draws a tree exactly the same way.” </p>

<p>We provide absolutely no feedback to the schools about their curricula. It is absolutely not our place. We are alumni, with (usually) no formal educational training (though there are two EC’s who are or were teachers in my region). I am an international EC, and meet kids applying to universities in multiple countries with different educational expectations and requirements. It is also very rare for me to interview more than one applicant from a single secondary school in a year. The feedback you describe is never, never done.</p>

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<p>A rural school not that far from us does not offer high-school physics. Personally, I think it would be helpful if a college admissions rep of some type told them that they were almost certainly disadvantaging their students. Maybe someone other than the interviewers?</p>

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<p>Mikalye the tree post of your reminds me of a Harry Chapin song with a young boy sent to a school where the only acceptable art is red flowers with green leaves. /OT</p>

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<p>@QuantMech - The secondary school report provides details on what’s available to the applicants, I believe.</p>

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<p>Right, PiperXP, I agree with that. I understand that the student would be evaluated in the context of the opportunities available. But I also think that high school physics is actually rather significant course for anyone in a STEM field to take–and it is broadening to students in other fields. I think there ought to be some feedback from somewhere that it short-changes students if physics is not offered by a high school. If there is no feedback, I think that schools that don’t have physics will persist in that pattern–and offer course like “Ironing for Credit.”</p>

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<p>I certainly will tell GCs that if/when I have the opportunity (although usually they know it’s a weakness, and just don’t have the funding to offer it). </p>

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<p>I think it’s worthwhile to send the message, still, MITChris, when you can. I think there are some school districts where high-school physics is really seen as no big deal. Also, I do appreciate the difficulty of getting people who are qualified to teach high-school physics into the high schools. I think it is often more a question of what the teachers are prepared to teach, rather than funding per se. [Sorry this is wandering a bit off the thread topic.]</p>

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<p>I agree. In my daughter’s high school physics was not offered until her junior year along with a new administration. The class was made mandatory and she could have chosen to take it then or wait until her senior year to take it. At this point in her life she hadn’t been excited by either her high school level biology class in 9th grade or her chemistry class in 10th grade even though she received an A+ in both. Since she didn’t seem interested in science she chose the mandatory physics class over the AP bio and AP chem classes. Well, up until then math had been her favorite class and she became very excited when she realized that her introduction to physics class utilized a lot of math and that there was very little memorizing compared to what her past bio and chem classes had. All of a sudden and not until 11th grade did my daughter realize that science didn’t have to be boring! Wow did things change! That summer she took an internship in a physics laboratory and thinking about colleges decided to explore MIT. In 12th grade she took AP chem and realized that the more advanced chem class also utilized math and she very much enjoyed that class too! </p>

<p>Today my daughter is a freshman at MIT. If it wasn’t for that new physics class I truly believe that my daughter would not be where she is today and probably would not have realized a passion in science either</p>

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<p>Now that it’s all over and I’ve received my rejection with as much indifference as I can muster, would it have made a difference if I had used my application to talk about my restrictive and (“arguably”) verbally-abusive father? Yes, I was beating around the bush quite widely in making this thread.</p>

<p>But – alas! – I suppose we cannot know, for we cannot know the position my application was in upon its rejection and, accordingly, whether or not the above tidbit would’ve tipped the scales in my favor.</p>