How does one compare nursing programs and how if at all does ranking matter?

College Majors Nursing Major
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<p>I'm new to this and wonder when people say, "XX has a good nursing program," what does that mean? More clinical opportunities, more advanced training, better placement? </p>

<p>What are the implications of going to a higher rated school? </p>

<ul>
<li>Do schools that are better regarded have placement at more prestigious hospitals, for example?<br></li>
<li>Do people from higher-rated schools end up with higher compensation? [I'd guess not, but this is a world I don't know].</li>
<li> Are people who are at better regarded BSN programs more likely to be admitted to graduate programs?</li>
<li> Are the nurses educated at higher-ranked schools better nurses because of their education (or at least because they are happier people)?</li>
</ul>

<p>Med schools basically look at GPAs and test scores. Where one got one's undergraduate GPA seems to matter very little in med school admissions. Is that the case with advanced nursing programs or do the grad programs pay attention to things other than GPAs (and if so what and how).</p>

<p>My daughter has decided she wants to become a nurse. She started her freshman year at a very good university in Canada, studying biology, but concluded that she didn't want to work in a lab and wants to work with people. To transfer to nursing there (she loves it there), she has to reapply and there is some chance she wouldn't be admitted, so she has to apply to other schools. [Oddly enough, she's taking Biology, Chemistry, Math for Biochemistry, Psychology and a language and the only course that she would get credit for if she transferred within her university is Psychology]. She was thinking about Canada only (she's a dual US/Canadian citizen and really likes Canada), but we live in the Boston area and she could apply here as well. There are quite a few schools here (BC, UMass Amherst, UMass Lowell, Simmons, Endicott, Regis, ...) We have no way of judging what matters. So, I thought I would reach out to the well-informed folks on CC to help us figure out how to think about how nursing programs are ranked and what we should care about.</p>

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<p>Yes to all–at least that is the basis for our approach to Nursing education. We’re looking for schools with high clinical hours, convenient location with proximity to med center, high NIH funding, large faculty with top curr vitae, and history of matriculation into nationally ranked grad programs. By the looks of your questions though, you know all of this; yes, I agree with your assumptions. there are far more articulate responses coming from our best contributors.</p>

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<p>I would add that compensation doesn’t change by school, at least for unionized nurses. </p>

<p>For grad schools, an undergrad program’s reputation is certainly a “soft factor” that is considered. A 3.0 from a well-regarded program might be trumped, however, by a 3.9 from a lesser known program. Some programs require high scores on standardized testing (GRE, etc.) Great work or research experience could trump GPA. A grad school program may offer guaranteed admission or preferences for grads of its own school, or it may desire diversity. A lot goes into grad school applications, so it’s hard to predict unless you do the grad school research for the track that your D wishes to pursue simultaneously. </p>

<p>As Cecil pointed out, your kid should consider the location of the school. Hospitals tend to know the schools closest to them. Feedback from medical practitioners in Boston will give you some information about how the local nursing schools are perceived. If you ask friends, neighbors, your doctor, and others, you may start to see a pattern. </p>

<p>We asked everyone possible about the schools in our area, and started hearing the same information about our local nursing schools over and over again. It was very interesting. We heard that one school produced nurses that weren’t “hands-on,” one school produced nurses that were good for nursing homes but not hospitals, that students from any school but “X School” were fine, and so forth.</p>

<p>Doing clinical hours at a hospital can give the hospital a chance to know the students, and give the students a chance to check out the hospitals. </p>

<p>I would also add that “fit” can be important. We visited many nursing programs when D was doing her applications, and the atmosphere of the programs (attitudes of professors and existing students, etc.) varied widely. There were differences in campuses, nursing facilities, nursing-track programs, required prerequisites, etc. As you go through the process, you are likely to find that one school stands out. You might find that the school your kid ultimately chooses is not the one you’d expect strictly on the basis of rankings of the college or university. US News doesn’t rank undergrad nursing programs, BTW.</p>

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<p>In a perfect world, a student would go to a nursing school near where they eventually wish to work. That would allow them to do clinicals in situations where the employer can get to the know the student, and the student can get to know the employer (as stated above). Many people have said they were hired after they did clinicals in that hospital.</p>

<p>I believe there is a difference between a student who would be happy being a RN for their whole life vs. one who has higher aspirations. If you are serious about becoming a nurse practitioner, I would imagine the quality of the undergrad program would matter more. Other people have said that most entry level nurses earn the same salary regardless of whether they have an expensive or cheap undergrad degree.</p>

<p>Everyone says that the nursing curriculum is very time-consuming. If a student attends a highly selective college, their non-nursing courses are likely to be very competitive, which might take too much time away from their nursing program. However, if a student attends a college in which the general student population is less selective, it may be easier to handle the workload because the non-nursing courses will be easier.</p>

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<p>All the above posts (IMPO) are accurate. Hopefully I can contribute by summarizing.</p>

<p>US News doesn’t rank undergrad nursing programs. The rankings you see are for graduate programs only.</p>

<p>Some Nursing grad programs prefer to admit their own undergrad students whenever possible. We were told by an administrator at Pitt’s SON that their grad programs give preference to their own udergrads because they know how well they’ve been prepared. That said, I agree with Neonzeus that different programs will place differenct emphasis on other factors such as diversity and GRE scores. A 3.9 GPA at a lesser known program would likely trump a 3.0 in a college’s own undergrad program. You would need to talk to any of the grad programs your daughter might consider to determine their selection criteria.</p>

<p>Employment: The better “regarded” nursing programs tend to have their clinical hours at the more highly regarded local hospitals. Sometimes that’s because the hospital and college are the same entity (such as some of the University Hospitals) or because they are part of the same corporation such as the UPMC hospitals in Pittsburgh. In any case if you are the premiere source of nurses in a geographical area then it is easier to convince the “better” hospitals to provide staff to help with the student’s clinical hours. The hospitals in turn anticipate that they will be able to take a closer look at these students and hopefully recruit the “best” for their own needs.</p>

<p>Regardless of which undergrad program s/he graduates from, after a few years of RN experience a nurse should be employable anywhere there is an opening. At the same pay scale as any other grad at that hospital with the same degree/experience.</p>

<p>If your daughter wants to stay close to home then I would suggest that she attend school close to home and do her clinicals in the hospitals that she hopes will hire her. I am sure Boston has some GREAT schools/hospitals. Another thing to consider; while most/many Nursing grad programs will allow you to begin their grad programs immediately after receiving your BSN/RN they will usually want SOME actual nursing experience before you can receive your MSN/NP/DNP. This usually requires either working for a year or more before beginning/applying for grad school or working while taking grad classes. Another reason to stay close to home if that is your daughter’s ultimate goal.</p>

<p>Hope our opinions helped and good luck to you and your daughter!</p>

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<p>That is very helpful. Neonzeus, my sense was that the quality of a nursing program would not necessarily be correlated with the overall prestige of the university. I think it would be asking a lot to predict what area of specialization would be best for her. She loves kids and they love her but she is excited by the thought of OB/GYN. She shadowed at a pediatric cardiac ICU unit and came back confident that she wants to be a nurse. </p>

<p>When I called a few friends in medicine, I got the sense that RNs on shifts didn’t have the best life (less respect, less control) than nurses with advanced training and that one should plan on advanced training. So, we will try to investigate programs that enable one to move into advanced training more easily. I imagine that may come more from visits/calls than from internet searches. Are there other sources for this information?</p>

<p>charlieschm, not clear where she will want to live. She’s a dual US/Canadian citizen and I think she finds the quality of life higher in Canada. [As the non-Canadian in our family, I’d have to agree except for those who are seeking absolute excellence in specific career paths and it is certainly true for middle class and upper middle class families on the whole]. Her current school is not in a big city, but there is a hospital (connected to the medical school) directly across the street from her dorm. In Massachusetts, we know lots of people – although health care is not my field, I was a consultant to the senior execs of two of the major Harvard teaching hospitals, know a former CEO and some execs at the third, some senior folks at a couple of other hospitals, etc. We also know some people in Toronto, so we can ask there.</p>

<p>cecilturtle, I actually know nothing nursing or nursing schools (so I’m flattered you thought I did), but I know something about academia because I began my career as a professor. So, I was just trying to figure out what might be considered attributes of a nursing program that were correlated with quality. But those were semi-educated guesses. Is there a published source of data on clinical hours (how would one know clinical hours were high?), NIH funding, etc.? </p>

<p>aglages, I assume one finds out about the better regarded programs by asking local docs/nurses/hospital execs. Based upon what you and the others are saying, she should probably try to stay in Canada if she wants to live in Canada rather than staying close to home (although our connections here could be more useful than those in Canada). </p>

<p>Thanks, </p>

<p>shawbridge</p>

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<p>

An excellent place to start. In addition the US News Graduate Nursing rankings are often of an indicator of the more highly regarded local undergrad nursing programs. Not always…but another factor to weigh…particularly if your daughter plans on applying to one of those grad programs.

I would imagine this decision would have to be evaluated based on your daughter’s time frame for living in Canada, the opportunities for undergrad and grad schooling in Canada and what the legal/licensing requirements are for nurses in Canada. Does Canada recognize US BSN/RN degrees or are there additional requirements? What if your daughter changes her mind and decides she wants to live in the US…does the US recognize Canadian issued nursing credentials? I honestly don’t know but it might be something to research.</p>

<p>How much of a nursing shortage (if any) exists in the area of Canada that your daughter wants to eventually settle? If there is a shortage then they might be delighted to hire her after she finishes her schooling in the US and has some experience even if she hasn’t done any of her clinicals at their hospital.</p>

<p>Just my opinion…but if everything were equal, I would keep my daughter closer to home where I could help her more easily and use whatever connections I have. I would enroll her in the best school that would admit her and that I could afford. Well…actually that is exactly what I did.</p>

<p>Again…good luck to you and your daughter.</p>

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<p>aglages, thanks. It appears that Canadian nurses can come to the US and do and I think it goes the other way as well, though when I had heard about it, pay was higher in the US and Canadian nurses were heading to the US. Canada limits foreign nurses, but I don’t think this would apply to a Canadian citizen, though I’m planning to investigate. My current understanding is that you have to be able to pass a Canadian test to practice in Canada (just as you have to pass a US test to practice in the US) but that well-trained nurses in the US pass the Canadian exam and vice versa.</p>

<p>We also have friends who run the ER at a hospital in Calgary. ShawD asked me this morning about seeing if they could find anything for her to do over the summer.</p>

<p>We have been very fortunate on the funding side. We have fully funded 529 plans for our kids, so we can afford whatever is needed.</p>

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<p>As a parent, I think it’s great that so many of you are looking ahead to possible grad schools. Two of my kids are already in grad school. I admit I’m a little frustrated that my nursing D isn’t interested in considering any grad school opportunities following her BSN. She’s keeping her GPA near 4.0 and loves her nursing program…but her only goal is to do patient care in the trenches. (Actually, she wants to work with geriatric patients in a nursing home.) She’s been warned by nursing home nurses who care for her other parent that she should get hospital experience right out of school, because once she starts working in a nursing home she’ll be less employable in any other setting. The nurses have also told her that as a ward nurse she can only care for one patient at a time. They told her that if she eventually goes into nursing administration, she could have more of an impact on patient care and policies. D just isn’t interested in anything except hands-on patient care. </p>

<p>I’m one of those parents who didn’t understand why my D wanted to be a nurse instead of doctor, pharmacist or dentist. I “sort-of” get it now. It’s truly a calling for her. </p>

<p>I just wish in my deepest secret-place that she’d at least consider the many grad school opportunities available to BSNs. I know things might change in the future, and that someday when I’m in a nursing home I’ll be grateful for such a committed nurse. Still…I’d like her to make lots of money so she could help support me someday…</p>

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<p>Neonzeus. We had thought ShawD would be a good candidate for med school as well, but she is also drawn to nursing. But, she really likes being in a team and dealing with the patients, while in many cases the doctors are more like lone wolves (“I am the decision-maker”) and don’t generally have time to actually deal with patients. Moreover, as I reflect back on my observation of women doctors, many had children during their training and couldn’t really spend time with them when they were young. So, it was tough in that stage of existence. Generally, the schedule of a doctor plus being on call makes it difficult to be too active a parent, although I know women who are working in clinics where they set their own schedules and get the time to be with their children. We know a lot of nurses who have comfortably combined the work schedule with child-raising, so it may fit as a profession that is easier from that perspective.</p>

<p>I have discussed with ShawD what I’ve heard, which is that nurses should probably work for a year or two in an acute care facility and then get a graduate degree (NP, masters, PA, PhD) that gets you somewhat better pay but significantly higher career respect and working conditions. She’s factoring it into her thinking. But, it is hard to predict the direction one ends up following in life.</p>

<p>I am somewhat concerned about the incomes my kids will make (I don’t expect them to support me, except for the island we’re hoping my son buys us) but I want them to get jobs that treat them well in terms of respect at work, satisfaction because they get the resources they need to achieve what fulfills them, and working conditions and money that feel good enough. Unfortunately for the state of the world, a normal RN’s income might be tough to raise a family on where I live, but would be a great second income. It is hard to predict where anyone will end up, but somehow I think ShawD will be married – she’s the kind of girl who has guys ready to drive her where she wants to go or fix her phone or computer – although you can never count on anything lasting in this day and age. All other things equal, it would be ideal to choose a career with an income in the top 1%, and it is unfortunate that lots of worthwhile jobs, including nursing, don’t hit the 1%. The good news: it is hard to outsource nursing (though it is insourcable), which may buffet it somewhat from the fluctuations of the economy.</p>

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<p>A comment was made above about a RN working in a nursing home. I’m guessing that in that situation, a RN is likely to have a major managerial role, because there are many more nurses aides and practical nurses and fewer RNs. That could be good or bad, depending upon your interests. In the Navy, my sister said the RNs also had a major managerial role, because there were so many corpsmen who function like practical nurses.</p>

<p>My other sister became an operating room nurse so she could work straight 9 to 5 hours.</p>

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<p>Shawbridge: You make very good points. I’m a professional, and have worked more than my fair share of 7-day work weeks and 14 hour days. It’s been extremely challenging to be a good parent under these circumstances (especially after my spouse became ill a decade ago and I became a caregiver, sole breadwinner and effectively our children’s only parent). I’ve also tried to put all of our kids through undergraduate schools without debt instead of saving for retirement even though that is contrary to every financial advisor’s recommendations.</p>

<p>I think this experience has made me excessively concerned about our kids’ financial stability to the detriment of quality of life considerations. Perhaps my D is wiser than I thought!</p>

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<p>Wow, Neonzeus. It sounds like yours has been a tough road. It is hard to know what is best in terms of the income/quality of life balance. My son is a highly competitive kid whose particular strengths lend themselves to high income fields (thus the joke about the island). My daughter is not that competitive. She’s a great kid with an effervescent personalty who genuinely wants to help people. She’s quite bright but is not intellectually oriented. In the ideal world, she follows the path that rewards her, gets a fulfilling job with a stable and pretty good income, and marries someone nice with sufficient income that they can live reasonably well on their two incomes (in the ideal world, hers becomes spending money because she does like to shop).</p>

<p>We’ve been reasonably fortunate. We’ve saved for education. My wife cut back her work when the kids were young. We’ve saved for/are saving for retirement. With luck and good health, there will be enough there for us to live on (I really don’t intend to retire because I love my work but do expect to slow down) and with additional luck/good fortune, beyond that there will be excess to help them with things like a house down payment.</p>

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<p>Aglages, Neon, Charlie, and Shaw, thank you for contributing to an amazing thread.<br>
This helps us all.</p>

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<p>Neonzeus - There is nothing wrong with a student graduating with $20K of federally subsidized loans for a quality undergrad degree. It just means they have to delay buying a new car for a few years and have to live with a used car. Make your kids take out loans and save for your own retirement.</p>

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<p>Most nursing programs post a typical curriculum on their website. They vary greatly and can be illuminating. </p>

<p>Some colleges load students up with standard liberal arts, humanities and phys ed classes for their first couple years. Others start heavily into nursing courses the first semester. </p>

<p>You can see when clinicals typically start for each college, which also varies greatly. (Although clinicals are often not specifically labeled as such.)</p>

<p>Some programs are extremely heavy in science (such as U. Pitt). </p>

<p>You will see that many programs require a student to take more than the typical 15 credits per semester.</p>

<p>Catholic and other religious-based colleges typically require that all students take at least a couple semesters or more of religion and/or ethics.</p>

<p>None of the programs that I looked at for my daughter included room for foreign languages. That surprises me - every nurse should know basic Spanish. (It would be a good idea to try to take 4 years of Spanish in high school.) </p>

<p>Most of the programs I looked at required very little math, except for one statistics class.</p>

<p>The common elements of all programs are lots of biology, chemistry, anatomy, nutrition, mental health, pharmacology, at least one psychology class, and at least one writing class.</p>

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<p>shawbridge - I’m joining the discussion late, but I’ve enjoyed reading the responses immensely! My D is also in nursing, a sophomore. She’s currently wondering if she should switch to pre-med, but I have a feeling she’ll stick with nursing. She’s more of the ER or OR type, has the nerves for it and likes the adrenaline. She’s also practical, and knows that with nursing, she has a much more flexible and changeable career. We have medical people in our family, some of whom seem to have painted themselves into a corner by being super-specialized and yet wanting to work part-time. You can’t do that if you’re the only specialist at a certain hospital and it means you’re on call 24 hours a day, every day. </p>

<p>A few more things to think about in your search - more prestigious hospital/colleges tend to have larger classes and you want to ask how many students go on rotation together during their clinicals, and whether they all get to cover each area. For any school, you’d want to how common it is to have to wait for a class and if that impedes graduating on time.</p>

<p>Also, take those USNWR ratings with a big grain of salt. They’re based ONLY on peer review, they look at no objective standards whatsoever. </p>

<p>It’s interesting that you see Canada as having a higher standard of living for the middle class. How much does their healthcare play into that? Is it a more secure field there because of the government being a single payer? I have a sister who lives in Scandinavia and I think it would be much harder here, for a single mom, to live comfortably. Mainly due to things like health care, public transportation and infrastructure and schools. Also, there is laughably little crime and even less poverty. Too bad about that long winter!</p>

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<p>[Best</a> Hospitals 2011-12: the Honor Roll - US News and World Report](<a href=“http://health.usnews.com/health-news/best-hospitals/articles/2011/07/18/best-hospitals-2011-12-the-honor-roll#comments]Best”>http://health.usnews.com/health-news/best-hospitals/articles/2011/07/18/best-hospitals-2011-12-the-honor-roll#comments)</p>

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<p>greenwitch, Canada has pretty serious winters (except for the Vancouver area), but what I see is that a pretty high percentage of middle and upper middle class Canadians that I know have “cottages” on a lake (outside of Montreal, Toronto, Ottawa, etc.) and they go there religiously each weekend. Spending the weekend at the cottage (in the out of doors) is considered necessary and in a sense a right. Life is more balanced. Generally there is a stronger sense that life is not just about work.</p>

<p>In the US, in our area at least, the folks who tend to be able to afford weekend houses don’t have any time to go to them because they are working so hard. The US tends to be the best for people who want to be the best or very nearly the best in their field, whatever their field is. But for the other folks, Canada looks better to me.</p>

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<p>Here’s a perfect counterpoint to the USNWR list of “best hospitals”:</p>

<p>[Listing</a> of top hospitals includes only one in the Washington area, Holy Cross - The Washington Post](<a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/listing-of-top-hospitals-includes-only-one-in-the-washington-area-holy-cross/2011/09/21/gIQAwjitzK_story.html]Listing”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/listing-of-top-hospitals-includes-only-one-in-the-washington-area-holy-cross/2011/09/21/gIQAwjitzK_story.html)</p>

<p>Hopkins does not make this list. To their credit they are humbled and vow to improve. </p>

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<p>Here is the criteria for this list:</p>

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