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OK, I have been eager to ask a question for months. It seems to me that many parents are at the whim of their kods’ decisions. I am reading that parents hope that their kids don’t get into their expensive dream school or that they choose the cheaper alternatives. Are people afraid to tell their kids no?
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<p>For some people, they’ve never told their kids “no”. (Can I introduce you to my MIL?)</p>
<p>Thank you for bringing up the subject of parents not wanting to tell their kids no. I live in that community- parents do not want to say no and end up taking out huge loans for schools that they can’t afford. I have a high stats kid who would go to Cornell tomorrow if she was accepted. She loved the school but as soon as I realized we were not getting FA ( we would only get from Harvard and Princeton but good luck getting in) I had to remove the school from the table and tell her no. My D is a junior and I have spent the past year making a list of safety schools that may give her enough merit ( our state school is very affordable). She can also apply to some selective schools that give merit but she knows if none is given then the school is removed. It is hard for me to come to terms with the fact that there are many schools that my kid should be allowed to apply to, but we won’t qualify for FA ( or at least enough FA) and if the school has no merit scholarships, oh well the answer is simply " no." </p>
<p>I am not going to lie. It took me a long time to come to terms with the fact that my kid can’t apply to some of these schools. It made my life much easier to discuss this ahead of time despite the fact that it makes me sad. Thankfully we live in a country where she will have many opportunities and affordable schools that would love to have her. </p>
<p>I just read through this quickly, but honestly, the Ivies are a place where middle class families DO get aid. My S just returned to his Ivy, and they calculated our EFC to be 20K, far below the 65K sticker price. It would have been lower, but we have some assets that pushed it higher. (since he’s only going for one semester, it was cut in half.) Plus, there was no loan in the package, so he could take out the standard gov loan, leaving 2.5 K. (of course, it would have been 12.5K for a whole year if he’d needed that. Still pretty doable.)</p>
<p>I think your income would have to be much higher than “middle class” to get to the point of no aid. Finishing his degree at a local state school would have cost more.</p>
<p>@garland, I agree. This seems to be an ongoing issue on CC. The definition of middle class is not clear. But we are in almost the exact same situation. EFC just over $20,000 for an Ivy. We are able to pay from savings and current income. We are middle class. I think this thread should be titled upper class, but not super wealthy or something like that.</p>
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<p>But for the most part they have been saying “no” all along. Every car they buy, every expensive dinner they go out on…is a “no” for a big college opportunity. </p>
<p>For mid to lower middle class ($80k or below), Ivies can be even more affordable than even in state public. At a financial aid information session, they told us not to include the work study amount as part of the funding source. It is not there until the student earns it. I also don’t consider the loan to be any cost saving. It is still our money to pay. Only the deferred interest is the actual cost saving. Without merit aid, a middle class can hardly afford even an in state public college these days. With two merit scholarships that covers ~50% of tuition and fees, we still need to pay $3500 above our EFC out of our pocket.</p>
<p>Yes, I would have a LOT of trouble telling my kids “no” for something like a college of choice that has a great reputation, rating, and recognition. If one of my kids got into HPY, and in order to get such an acceptance, kids have to be the top of the top in terms of accomplishment, motivation and work ethic, as a rule, I would be hard pressed to say, “no”. I would do what I could to make it happen, if that is what he truly wanted. The same for any other educational avenue that is a passion, not a whim. If there is a program at XYX Private college that happens to be one that aligns well with my kid, not easily found elsewhere and with a lot of components that make it a great match for what he wants to do, absolutely yes, I 'd have trouble saying “no”. And I say “no” all A LOT to my kids Wouldn’t hesitate an instant to say, “no” if the kid picks a school because he likes the football team, or because a bunch of kids from his school thinks it’s cool, or he just picks it from a afar and likes the idea. But a school that matches his interests, talents and what he likes as surroundings, absolutely, postitively I’d have trouble saying no. I think I might look for a job cleaning Port A Potties to make it a go. </p>
<p>The thing is, in our case, and as is the case for many “middle” to upper income folks who don’t have the money sitting there to pay for college and cannot cut the living expenses to pay for it either, and who should not be taking out large loans, given how sewn up they are in commitments already made, these folks, and I’m one of them, CAN pay the big bucks for a high end school, by giving up the current standard of living. Very painful. means downsizing big time, and it will take a while before things settle down and you get more money, but certainly can be done in a few years time–you borrow in the meantime.</p>
<p>There are very, very few people who are middle or high income that can’t do this. Yes, it may mean moving into an “apartment” and not at the standard that you are used to living. The area might be more dangerous, seedy, not as nice. That’s what you bought for your money, is the standard you now think is de rigueur but those living better than you would probably sniff at what you think is adequate.</p>
<p>When my friend’s father, died, it was pretty clear that the parents had been living beyond their means, and if some downsizing wasn’t done, there would be no assets, nothing. Her mother is bitter to this day about having to sell her life belongings including her beloved house and moving into a small apartment, but having done so has bought her years of independence and options already. SO it can be for many. </p>
<p>When I was a child, my family lived upstairs in someone’s house A widow who just had her second floor made into an apartment because she could not afford to stay there otherwise and needed more income, was our land lady. The neighborhood was pretty much lower middle class bordering on upper, and just squeaked into a good school district and was one of the few ways, my father would have been able to afford to have sent his kids to those schools that were a cut above the neighboring ones. He had a low income, few assets, and no one that could lend or give him money. Not a living arrangement that most folks in his situation would have considered. He could have gotten a more standard apartment if the school district were not a consideration for him. He could have bought a house in some areas. But he wanted a certain type of school for his kids, and that was what he could afford in living quarters to get into that district.</p>
<p>Some of my kids went to what are called independent schools, which in our case was an expensive private with highly selective standards. The average SAT scores at the school are in line with the most selective schools in the country, and the curriculum and other amenities, all of the things that attract people to the top colleges in the country were there. And the cost was right up there too with NO government money and very little financial aid and hardly any merit money. The families who sent their kids there were not all rich, rich folks, let me tell you. Many sacrificed their family living situations to send their kids there. Families living in apartments, less expensive, small homes in school districts not highly rated, small accommodations, so that they could afford the cost of sending their kids to that school. Something had to give somewhere for them as they did not have the finances to just pay without arranging their lives in other ways.</p>
<p>So it is with college. You get comfortable where you live and the very idea that you should move, heaven forbid to Garland’s neighborhood (she lives right near NYC and lives in very middle class surroundings, has downsized life style and still has sent kids to top schools). People who live in half million dollar and more homes will swear to you and believe it that it 's what one HAS to spend to live in the greater NYC area. Nope. not the case. My kid goes to school in NYC, and I daresay, half his class lives in quarters that are worth less than $250K, and they are eligbile for fin aid Some get TAP and PELL. They somehow found homes that cost a lot less than those in neighborhoods and houses that those living there swear are the rock bottom costs for anything acceptable</p>
<p>I KNOW why I can’t come up with the $60K a year that private colleges cost. It’s not “can’t” but it’s what I don’t want to give up. I have what I think are very good reasons for it, but yes, it’s fat that could be cut. College is not the be all to end all in one’s life, so it’s not necessarily a good thing to squeeze a family in a house that’s not comfortable, have dad and mom get a second job. These are all things that have to be weighed, and for whatever reasons, despite my many, many failings as a parent, my kids thoroughly understand that there are other family members’ life styles that might hold precendent over college choice Dad might want to hang onto those teeth tha could be cheaply yanked and go to dentures and try the expensive implant route instead, and mom might want some expensive eye things that cost a lot money. Talk about sacrificing your eye-teeth for college! But seriously, that’s what it comes down to, with most middle and upper income families that aren’t downright wealthy. Priorities and cutting back in other areas.</p>
<p>Classic post–Cptinthehouse. Really lays out the hidden choices we all make.</p>
<p>And as far as us–yes, as you correctly recall, we live in a “high expense area” but in a very moderate expense way. We scrimped on housing, and by CC standards, on K-12 schooling, sending our kids to the local publics which are a Title One school system with none of the bells and whistles of the surrounding towns. So it was a trade-off. Despite this, our kids did get accepted to very good schools (a top LAC and an Ivy), and we were able to pay for them. Which is nice. :)</p>
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<h1>Thank you for bringing up the subject of parents not wanting to tell their kids no. I live in that community- parents do not want to say no and end up taking out huge loans for schools that they can’t afford</h1>
<p>But for the most part they have been saying “no” all along. Every car they buy, every expensive dinner they go out on…is a “no” for a big college opportunity.
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<p>@garland</p>
<p>This is a good point, but I don’t think it’s something that these “immediate gratification” folks consider. They have a kid crying for the latest iPhone or whatever and they can’t say “no” because they hate hearing the whining (cuz they didn’t put a stop to those tantrums when the kid was in the throes of the terrible twos.)</p>
<p>So, these folks will turn to Plus Loans or whatever to avoid another meltdown.</p>
<p>@collegeshopping: The parents need to enjoy the fruits of their labor too. And that big “college opportunity” isn’t an entitlement. Just my opinion. </p>
<p>I’ve told my kids no very early on and often. No birthday or Christmas gifts. No birthday parties. The 3 kids share the same bedroom. Deprivation? No. We’ve done well enough to deprive them from the poverty my wife and I grew up with. They won’t know what it feels like for 7 people to share a one bedroom apartment or relying on government assistance for 2 of your meals each day. </p>
<p>We drive our cars for 10+ years or 200,000 miles and donate them to needy coworkers. We also cover excess tuition expenses for family members who can not meet the cost of educating their kids at local state schools. Instead of spoiling our own kids, we are able to help many. Several people helped us in the past, so we choose to help others with minimal harm to our kids. We chose to give them the best primary and secondary education in our area without hurting our finances.</p>
<p>So, it is always puzzling when I read how some of the CC parents feel trapped by their children’s choices instead of the other way around. Trust me, I am very impressed by many of the CC contributors who have raised highly accomplished kids. These stories are truly inspiring. But reading stories of parents who risk their own financial stability is disturbing. </p>
<p>Lastly, I have learned that the definition of middle class is definitely different for everybody. Our NPC is full price for Harvard and Princeton. But we consider ourselves middle class. We would miss $250,000 and would be stressed about it if we paid that for an UG education. I congratulate the parents who can do this for UG and give my best wishes to those who choose and struggle to do this. I won’t be one of them.</p>
<p>I grew up in poverty and couldn’t imagine ever denying my children Christmas or birthday gifts. JMO. </p>
<p>My kids are very clear that they do not want us moving to a less expensive house, less choice location so that we could pay for private colleges for them. That and private k-12 is/was where we spend our money. Many, most people live in homes less sumptuous than mine. We have a large house that allows for us to take care of two elderly mothers, mine and my MIL in comfort with their own bathrooms. It allows for our large family to come and visit, stay a while, again in great comfort, It’s in a location ideal to DH’s work and for other job opportunities. It makes things a lot easier, more comfortable for a lot of family members, and that is the big nut that has to be let go if we want to afford other expensive things. It is absolutely a luxury and a big one–I make no bones about it, admit it freely. We’ve thought about downsizing here, and will do so eventually, but we can’t find anything close to what this life style choice has bought in ease, comfort, amenities, luxuries for our family, plus it would involve a lot of work stress and expense to make such a move. </p>
<p>Me? My right arm is for sale for a college. Heck, I’m easy and shallow that way, but my kids don’t want me or Dad to be working more than we are either. I would absolutely not gone to a school or chosen anything in life to have made things more difficult for my parents. How I wish, I’d had my father longer. The very idea of him doing a second job or stressing out on making ends meet for me after I turned 18 hurts. No, absolutely not something I would have wanted to do to him. It was tough enough for him as it was. </p>
<p>How to pay colleges requires disciplines and savings when your children are born. My family starts saving for our children’s education from the beginning. Luckily for us, we live in a place where cost of living is not too high. We can live comfortably with a 3-bedroom house without much bells and whistles. We also save for our retirements early on. </p>
<p>With acceptance letters coming in these days, I have shown my D how we will pay her college expenses, how to pay her medical school, how to pay her brother’s college once both of them are in college. Especially I showed her how much we can comfortably pay, how much would be a stretch. I have investments which will generate income. I plan to use that for their colleges, even though it will delay our retirement and we are willing to do that for our children. Even with this plan, it is not 100% proof, because nobody can predicate what is going to happen tomorrow. However, we plan it out and hope everything will work out at the end. We will sacrifice a lot, because money will be tight for next decade when both my children are in school. </p>
<p>For college education, it is a family decision in my house.</p>
<p>I think the point is no big expenditures for birthdays and parties. Watching the $$ and focusing on important things. When one grows up in poverty it often may mean carrying on more frugal ways (look at how our relatives were that made it through the depression).</p>
<p>My DD1 stated to GC and me early in HS senior year that she wanted to apply to OOS flagship school (without thinking about the financial consequences and really not getting anything not available in our state schools). I nipped that thought in the bud immediately. This girl is usually pretty good with money (and actually is pretty frugal herself). She has grown up with advantages but with plenty of ‘no’ as M2CK knows 
Was happy to apply to 3 in state schools and got best scholarship at her first choice.</p>
<p>HS offered Personal Finances which DD2 took (one semester course) - it is workbook that follows DVDs of Dave Ramsey’s Financial Peace - so DD2 understands costs and savings and budgeting. She understands that she is going into a field where she can afford her lifestyle. She will be going to state flagship where there are a lot of financially privileged students, so hopefully she can appreciate what she has and not what some others around her have…</p>
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<p>Yup.</p>
<p>I like the way @cptofthehouse put it. I’m one who watches every penny, so I can pretty easily identify what we could’ve cut out to make an Ivy affordable to us. And it’s not a fancy house or nice cars. I’ve never asked our kids, but I’m pretty sure they would rather we had spent the money how we did than saved every dollar for college. We have saved some, but that money, along with what we can cashflow, doesn’t come close to the 60k to 70k needed for a top tier school for each of our four kids. </p>
<p>Perhaps because we’re not truly middle class, opening up better opportunities doesn’t hold as much appeal for us? The way I see it, our kids have had plenty of opportunities and so long as they’re willing to work, they will continue to have plenty of opportunities in their futures. Maybe it’s unique to Philadelphia, but I have seen more doors opened by where a person went to high school than by any other aspect of their education. Particularly if it’s a school like Central or Germantown Academy or a handful of others. All of a sudden you’re interesting and people want to talk to you and see if you know so and so. Contacts are made and deals are closed. I see it all the time. </p>
<p>I think it requires a real balance. Much of our discretionary spending has been on experiences while my children have been young. Music lessons and dance, school trips, activities, sports. I think taking my daughter to Broadway musicals was as important at 10 as when she is in college. I’ve paid an awful lot for lacrosse over the years, but D2 is getting it back 10 fold in a scholarship. These activities and lessons have made them who they are, and they wouldn’t be going to the colleges they are without having had the experiences. Even vacations are important. We didn’t go first class, but we did go. I try not to waste money, but I know I have. I drive a 12 year old car, we live in a small-ish town house, I’m playing catch up on retirement and college funds because of several years of unemployment. Some things just aren’t worth missing out on to put the money into the college fund.</p>
<p>My kids are fine with living in the ‘not fancy’ dorms, taking a smaller meal plan, getting a job to make spending money. We are not ordering the ‘dorm pack’ of new sheets, towels, and bedding since we have perfectly good bedding right in the closet at home. Cars? No. New books? Doubt it.</p>
<p>What would I have done if either earned her way into an Ivy and only that expensive school would work? I’d probably take on a second job, take the loans, and give up vacations and travel (and she would too). I could do that because I don’t have younger kids at home. I don’t think it is fair for a family to go bare bones for one child. It has to be a ‘what’s best for all of us’ decision.</p>
<p>Mom2k–that post you’re quoting on page 2 wasn’t mine.</p>
<p>I think the take-home for this thread is that this really is an individual choice thing. Many middle to upper middle class kids go to Ivies, much more than low income kids. Some get significant FA, and some get a bit of FA, and some families who don’t qualify for aid make particular choices in their livestyles to finance school, which might mean limiting other choices. There’s no right or wrong answer as to what families should do, but the overall “it’s only for poor kids or rich kids” is patently not true.</p>
<p>I agree with @Garland. It is, indeed, individual – and quite personal, isn’t’ it? </p>
<p>However, it is disappointing to hear families lament the costs when they made choices not to save all along. For instance, I know a family (middle/low-middle) who hasn’t put a dime away for college. And they are worried. Affording their rather economical state schools makes them concerned. Seriously, cutting back throughout the years isn’t fun, but it would have made a significant impact in their case. In fact, even if their kids go for privates that meet need, I highly doubt they will be able to afford the EFC due to this. I think many families are finding themselves in this place, and see it each spring when seemingly well to do students get into Choice A but end up selecting Choice B due to lack of savings.</p>
<p>For us, it’s too soon to say, but assuming the NPC’s are close to accurate, she’ll be ok. DH ran them before D had the go-ahead to apply; knowing full well that if the NPC’s are way off, the school will have to go. We chose to sacrifice along the way, and, no, it hasn’t been all roses and rubies, but now that acceptances are coming it, it is the best feeling to know that we can cover the EFC, and it broadened the landscape of schools to check out (again, assuming the NPC’s are close to right.) </p>
<p>But, again, it’s quite personal, isn’t it? :)</p>
<p>We live in a small house and do not drive fancy cars or eat out often. We cook most nights of the week and bring lunch and coffee to work each day. We do not take vacations. Our vacations are college visits and we get free hotels. My husband and I both work full time jobs. Sometimes I take on extra work doing home care ( I am in an education/ health field). We began saving for our kids when they were very young. Right now my older D is attending an in-state school and all of her tuition money is sitting in her 529 account. Could we have saved more so that D15 could attend an Ivy or other top school? Perhaps, but it would have meant no birthday parties, no dance lessons, no softball, less expensive camp ( used it for daycare), etc. I would not have been comfortable taking that away from my older D, and I would have had to in order to have the extra money for her sister. I could have rented a small two bedroom apartment if I wanted to, but I did not want to sacrifice a home, etc so that one of my kids could attend a $60,000 a year school. Essentially we would have had to give both of my kids much less than we did for 18 years so that one of them could attend an elite school. </p>
<p>Could we take out loans to make up the difference between what we could afford and what the school costs? Yes, but i am 51 years old and it makes me nervous. Both of my kids are going to grad school. I am sure that somewhere in this country there is a school that fits my kid at a price that we could afford. She will cast a wide net and at the end of the day it will work out. </p>
<p>This is a very personal decision. </p>
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<p>I apologize for answering as a student–given that this thread is directed towards parents–but I believe my perspective may be a bit fresh. </p>
<p>My parents gave me permission to apply to as many reach schools as I wanted. We’re middle class (with a large CoL; DC burbs’), but they assumed financial aid would be generous at top-tier schools. After some research, our FAFSA EFC was unthinkable to pay, as were our numbers on the Harvard net price calculator (one of the most generous). I have yet to receive my decisions, but even if I were accepted to an Ivy League/top-tiered school, I would prefer to save my parents’ money and not attend. </p>
<p>The problem most modern day kids have is a sense of overwhelming entitlement. We think we deserve to go to these schools, and we’re mad that we can’t afford it. It’s crazy. I best summed it up in a post I put in the High School Life section last night, if any of you care to read it (it was on this topic): </p>
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